Something you should know about pizza delivery

[Light Cleric]

The gradual rise of minimum wage in Canada over the course of years didn't result in a crippled workforce or absurdly increased prices.

I just want to address this real quickly since I used most of my time on the below. There needs to be consideration that just because something works in one country does not necessarily mean it's going to work really well in others. I see this argument applied to many, many, MANY things(gun control, immigration, etc) with complete disregard to the dynamics of a country. Except, of course, "loser pays" because we can't stop the trial lawyers from cashing in, right?.

This is just a general point, not an argument that it can't work.

So long as there are millions of unemployed and underemployed people who are literally unable to gain experience, or education, to better their circumstances, it is not for you to judge them for not holding an ideal job for much of their lives.

It is thoughtless and a little condescending, and quite unrealistic.

What I have noticed is that there are people who believe the world ought to adhere to their view of it, that way their solutions would solve the problem.

They will say, if only those people would just simply get off their butts and get another job? Why not just get an education? Oh silly poors, why not stop whining and ask for a raise? If you earned one, the free market dictates you'll get one. Obviously the market has determined you haven't worked hard enough to get one.

Why, in my day, I worked hard and I earned everything I got. Luck or circumstances had zero to do with it. And so on.

People with an unrealistic grasp on the world suggest unrealistic solutions which feed into their predetermined political viewpoint. It's always the worker's fault for his circumstances, and there are no solutions except tax cuts for the wealthy, and pulling oneself up by their bootstraps etc. The employer never does anything blatantly unethical or completely inequitable.

And there wouldn't actually be a solution where a minimum wage would solve everything. That involves a solution that conservative philosophy says is wrong, despite all the facts which show it is the only solution here.

But I say, instead of the offering non-solutions which only work in the ideal free market perfect world where the market is actually fair, and only work in conservative fantasyscape, why not simply fix the actual real-world problem?

Problem was: Those with a minimum wage had their wages slashed to below minimum wage for no other reason than it was legal to do so.

Therefore remove the loophole which allowed that, and restore wages to 2004 levels.

That fixes the problem, and a rational person not concerned with the triumph of their political ideology would suggest it.

This is why certain people refuse to even accept that there IS a problem, and rationalize everything and say well, there's no problem, or if there is one, it's the worker's fault. Blatantly grabbing the worker's wages is not a real problem.

Or here's a non-solution which demonstrates your problem isn't really an issue, because in imaginationland there are simple solutions which always work, and if they didn't, it would kind of suggest that I'm talking out of my butt. Which, is pretty much always the case when it comes to supply-sider's opinions on how to save an economy, manage one, or help any class of people, particularly the bottom rung of society. Continue doing the exact same things. Which is simply ignoring problems and pretending everything is okay or easily solvable.

That's why supply siders should never, ever, ever be allowed to govern. Because they do not understand how to use critical thinking. They only understand how to try to force square peg into round hole, because in their philosophy, there's no such thing as a round hole. Such a thing is preposterous. And acknowledging there are round holes would undermine the entire house of cards which is conservative ideology.

I'm sorry, but this here is what makes me think you are not interested in an actual discussion but just wish to rant.

I was asking about your situation in particular. You cannot expect to have a discussion about a situation, only give the facts you want to give, name-call people who ask for more details, and then go off on yet another spiel and bash them. Well, I guess you CAN, but it wouldn't be much a discussion.

I was curious if you attended college; you did, but could not continue. Was it because of loss of funding, i.e. TOPS or HOPE or whatever acronym your particular state uses? I already made it clear that if people well and truly are incapable of rising past a certain level then help is perfectly acceptable. But bristling and name-calling when someone asks for more details about college, what jobs you've applied to etc. does not accomplish anything and frankly it's insulting.

You start your discussion about the point of uneducated people. Of course that's a problem. But why are they uneducated? We spend more money per student than any other developed nation on the planet, we continue to suck, and yet the answer is still more money and more centralization.

It makes me sick when people like President Obama stand up and, to try and get more money, invoke how great our schools were in the 1950s and 60s. You know, back when the budget for the federal Department of Education was a whopping $0.00, which I think converts to $0.00 in today's dollars, because it didn't exist. We have unemployment and illiteracy rates among minorities that we haven't seen since slavery. And yet people who oppose more money to awful standardized tests and centralized education that have led us to this mess want to "cut education" and are, as you labeled me, "thoughtless". We have a very, very distorted idea of what compassion is when being "thoughtful" and "compassionate" means "spending other people's money in a specific way". And yeah, this is a problem that goes to both parties(Bush 41 and 43 really got it going and then Obama simply took it up to 11 like he has with a lot of crappy Bush administration policies).

I can't really respond to the rest of it, given that it's positions that I did not hold or espouse and yet you quoted me anyway(for example, I already discussed unions. You have made it clear that your solution will work and any other proposal is null. The last post in particular simply reads like a blog post. I think you'll find very few people satisfied with the current situation. What I dislike is when large business and government conspire and blow everything up, government gets to rush in and clean up the mess it made and look like a hero, continues its incestuous relationship with corporations(look at the Obama administration appointees, for example) and then call that "capitalism" or "free markets".

 

[Crezth]

I just want to address this real quickly since I used most of my time on the below. There needs to be consideration that just because something works in one country does not necessarily mean it's going to work really well in others. I see this argument applied to many, many, MANY things(gun control, immigration, etc) with complete disregard to the dynamics of a country. Except, of course, "loser pays" because we can't stop the trial lawyers from cashing in, right?.

Oh yes, the mystical "dynamics" that confound every policy change one doesn't like. Well played!

 

[Synobun]

No one should need to work in order to live, because, well, it is not necessary. The workforce can be sufficiently automatised for all to live of a basic income without inflating the prices.

I'm a big fan of basic income regardless of occupation. I just think that human psychology is currently built and developed around the concept of mandatory labour in order to 'earn' the right of living rather than just surviving so something like a basic income is a tough sell for the vast majority of people.

I just want to address this real quickly since I used most of my time on the below. There needs to be consideration that just because something works in one country does not necessarily mean it's going to work really well in others. I see this argument applied to many, many, MANY things(gun control, immigration, etc) with complete disregard to the dynamics of a country. Except, of course, "loser pays" because we can't stop the trial lawyers from cashing in, right?.

This point has received consideration a lot of times. The counter-argument is always "what works in your nation won't work in America" which results in America doing what America thinks is best. From where I'm sitting, this has caused a laughably bad healthcare system, an ass-backwards way of viewing poverty and welfare, and a terrible method of considering the worth of human lives. No one sane has ever claimed that America should do what another nation does word for word, simply that it would be a good idea for America to see what works for other nations and look into making it work for them.

As far as I know there is very little evidence that suggests not being a douchebag to your citizens and kin will cripple the economy and leave everyone in a perpetual level of Great Depression lifestyles. Seemingly the only nations that think this would indeed cause those things are America, a handful of African nations, a handful of Middle Eastern nations, and a handful of South-East Asian nations, all of which have relatively... poor ways of looking at things from a human rights perspective. There's no reason why America should be counted among them when America has both the manpower and ability to recreate the vision of the American Dream that was so appealing decades ago. The statistics are there, prices are increasing faster than wages exponentially, and a lot of the time the wages are a bare minimum while company profits skyrocket. No one is trying to claim that companies should only break even and put everything into worker compensation. People are only claiming that it's very easy for workers to earn a living wage if those in charge of determining the wage were so inclined without causing an economic disaster. No country is the exception to this observation, even glorious America that is immune to what works for other people.

 

[Cutlass]

I just want to address this real quickly since I used most of my time on the below. There needs to be consideration that just because something works in one country does not necessarily mean it's going to work really well in others. I see this argument applied to many, many, MANY things(gun control, immigration, etc) with complete disregard to the dynamics of a country. Except, of course, "loser pays" because we can't stop the trial lawyers from cashing in, right?.

This is just a general point, not an argument that it can't work.

Saying there is a difference between countries is just an excuse for doing nothing. It has nothing to do with whether something works.

 

[Light Cleric]

Oh yes, the mystical "dynamics" that confound every policy change one doesn't like. Well played!

Saying there is a difference between countries is just an excuse for doing nothing. It has nothing to do with whether something works.

I'm gonna put this in two places.

I said in my post this is not an argument that it can't work. I was not making that case.

I was complaining about both sides here. "X does it" is cited as a reason all the time, and yet these very same people will ignore this reasoning if you point out some of the other things that other industrialized nations do that they don't like. I've said before I would be rather adverse to adopting poor defense of free speech than many other Western nations show, the possibility of being thrown in jail for things other people deem "hateful" and/or having my ass drug to the Human Rights Commission.

Ditto for decentralized education, do you want to hear about all the times I've been shot down with no real explanation other than "that wouldn't work here"? Even though countries that beat the hell out of us in every metric do that and let the states that are much closer and more in-tune with their populations determine the curriculum?

This point has received consideration a lot of times. The counter-argument is always "what works in your nation won't work in America" which results in America doing what America thinks is best. From where I'm sitting, this has caused a laughably bad healthcare system, an ass-backwards way of viewing poverty and welfare, and a terrible method of considering the worth of human lives. No one sane has ever claimed that America should do what another nation does word for word, simply that it would be a good idea for America to see what works for other nations and look into making it work for them.

That's boiling down the argument to very, very simple terms. One of the dynamics I was referring to, for example, is the actual gun culture over here in contrast to Europe and other countries. The way the Second Amendment has shaped thing is understated, the fact that gun deaths have been sharply declining for two decades is ignored, and we are simply told we must do what every other industrialized nation has done. Apparently in some parts of Europe it's illegal to even possess ammunition and you can face charges for injury done in self-defense. That would be seen as lunacy over here where people adhere to the castle doctrine. That is the larger point I was making.

As far as I know there is very little evidence that suggests not being a douchebag to your citizens and kin will cripple the economy and leave everyone in a perpetual level of Great Depression lifestyles. Seemingly the only nations that think this would indeed cause those things are America, a handful of African nations, a handful of Middle Eastern nations, and a handful of South-East Asian nations, all of which have relatively... poor ways of looking at things from a human rights perspective. There's no reason why America should be counted among them when America has both the manpower and ability to recreate the vision of the American Dream that was so appealing decades ago. The statistics are there, prices are increasing faster than wages exponentially, and a lot of the time the wages are a bare minimum while company profits skyrocket. No one is trying to claim that companies should only break even and put everything into worker compensation. People are only claiming that it's very easy for workers to earn a living wage if those in charge of determining the wage were so inclined without causing an economic disaster. No country is the exception to this observation, even glorious America that is immune to what works for other people.

I'm gonna repeat this. I said in my post this is not an argument that it can't work. I was not making that case.

It was a pet peeve that I have when that is thrown around without additional reasoning as to WHY it won't work. I didn't give that reasoning and that is why I said this is not an argument.

Are we all clear now? The OP turned this into a ranting blog, I don't see why I can't vent a little about my own annoyances.

Do I need to use 48 pt font + underline + bold + rainbow text + a marquee next time so that people don't ignore the entire rest of my post to misinterpret what I wrote? Yeah, I am a little pissed that people deliberately ignored what I wrote to try and stick their noses in the air.

 

[Cutlass]

I'm gonna put this in two places.

I said in my post this is not an argument that it can't work. I was not making that case.

I was complaining about both sides here. "X does it" is cited as a reason all the time, and yet these very same people will ignore this reasoning if you point out some of the other things that other industrialized nations do that they don't like. I've said before I would be rather adverse to adopting poor defense of free speech than many other Western nations show, the possibility of being thrown in jail for things other people deem "hateful" and/or having my ass drug to the Human Rights Commission.

Ditto for decentralized education, do you want to hear about all the times I've been shot down with no real explanation other than "that wouldn't work here"? Even though countries that beat the hell out of us in every metric do that and let the states that are much closer and more in-tune with their populations determine the curriculum?

The United States has traditionally had the most decentralized education in the world. And it was an utter failure. The fact that it is more centralized now is exclusively an artifact of the fact that decentralization was tried, for over 200 years, and the results were dismal.

 

[El_Machinae]

Actually, I kinda like that places like the US and the EU exist. This means that there is constant opportunity to run micro-experiments, and then pick from the winners. Some tweak helped elsewhere? Consider adopting it. Some intervention didn't work? Then don't pick it up. Honestly, if it wasn't for the actual data, I'd have not changed my stance (to "hmmmmmm") on minimum wage. And that required micro-experiments. See also: marijuana legalization, needle exchanges, gay marriage, deficit spending, tax credits, etc.

 

[Synobun]

Are we all clear now? The OP turned this into a ranting blog, I don't see why I can't vent a little about my own annoyances.

Do I need to use 48 pt font + underline + bold + rainbow text + a marquee next time so that people don't ignore the entire rest of my post to misinterpret what I wrote? Yeah, I am a little pissed that people deliberately ignored what I wrote to try and stick their noses in the air.

Yes.

But hey man, no one said you couldn't vent or raise concerns. No one ignored what you said either and no one is claiming that you made an argument that America can't adopt foreign policies that have been proven to work. We're all a part of the same species so it makes sense that what worked in another first world nation may indeed possibly work in your first world nation. There is no expectation of universal adoption since that wouldn't work, simply that a nation should look at what has worked for other countries and see if they can adapt it to suit their needs. The same is expected of the reverse. Things that don't work in one nation should be looked at by other nations to avoid the same results.

Saying that Canada had a successful raising of minimum wage without the apocalypse coming upon us is a valid statement as it is something other nations can investigate to see if it'd work for them. Simply saying, "We're America, what works for you won't work for me," isn't a valid point because it immediately shuts the door to any investigation, any debate, and any applications.

 

[warpus]

Other places around the world trying different strategies in whatever area can be things you can learn from in an attempt to implement things in your own country that can work better than they do now.

But from my experience North America isn't that big on the whole "evidence based solution" thing. Not trying to bash, but there are a lot more ideology driven solutions being implemented instead.

 

[illram]

I confess I've never had a pizza delivered to me.

Then my friend, you have not lived!

 

[Borachio]

Au contraire, sir.

I have a wrecked body, and mind, to prove that I have.

Now, if you have some evidence for the rejuvenating power of pizza, I shall reconsider.

 

[Light Cleric]

Yes.

But hey man, no one said you couldn't vent or raise concerns. No one ignored what you said either and no one is claiming that you made an argument that America can't adopt foreign policies that have been proven to work. We're all a part of the same species so it makes sense that what worked in another first world nation may indeed possibly work in your first world nation. There is no expectation of universal adoption since that wouldn't work, simply that a nation should look at what has worked for other countries and see if they can adapt it to suit their needs. The same is expected of the reverse. Things that don't work in one nation should be looked at by other nations to avoid the same results.

Saying that Canada had a successful raising of minimum wage without the apocalypse coming upon us is a valid statement as it is something other nations can investigate to see if it'd work for them. Simply saying, "We're America, what works for you won't work for me," isn't a valid point because it immediately shuts the door to any investigation, any debate, and any applications.

Frankly I was set off because it seemed like people were being snarky(and I think some actually were lol) while not understanding what I was saying. That felt like intellectual dishonesty and that sets me off more than anything. I have thick skin for most things(you have no idea some of the things I've been called ) but that doesn't mean I don't get annoyed by a handful of others.

Au contraire, sir.

I have a wrecked body, and mind, to prove that I have.

Now, if you have some evidence for the rejuvenating power of pizza, I shall reconsider.

I don't have any. In fact, I think we have very hard, irrefutable scientific evidence that pizza causes broken arms.

 

[AdamCrock]

Then my friend, you have not lived!

.. true story ...

 

[timtofly]

Then my friend, you have not lived!

Nor dreamed.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

As an aside, am I the only one who think it's obnoxious for there to be tip jars/a "tip" section on the receipt at carry-out places? I have no problem tipping delivery people and waiters, but I had to get in my car and drive to go get my pizza or whatever. All you did was turn around and get it out of the oven thing. There's not even a dine-in area so it's not like I took them away from customers. I don't get it.

That tends to annoy me, too, although I get the rationale that maybe there are family members working there who need a bit extra. But good grief, the Chinese place in the mall has a tip jar! It's not a sit-down restaurant - it's in the food court. The food gets put on a plate or takeout container, handed to you, and if you want a drink you have to do it yourself.

The coffee & sandwich kiosk in the public library has a tip jar as well, but in that case it doesn't really bother me. Yes, it's a family business; the woman who runs it frequently has her kid there, and sometimes it's a couple of minutes' wait while she does mom/kid-related stuff. But the food is good, there's a great variety of pop, juice, cocoa, and other non-coffee drinks, and there have been times when she's made me up a sandwich to order (my own preferences) if what I wanted wasn't already made.

You're well within your right to withhold a tip for poor service.

In defense of the driver- sometimes the order taker does not put enough information on the ticket. The situation you describe is the phone person's fault 99 times out of 100.

Not trying to throw other members of the team under the bus, but the driver is literally not responsible for almost all of the store's bleep-ups.

The only things he contributes to the issue are: Poor navigation (new driver) taking too long to do a delivery (it's supposed to take 20 minutes round-trip. All drivers' drive times are logged by the computer. Drivers with long drive times lose hours and eventually do not have a job, so this is extremely rare) or forgetting a soda, having to go back and get it (happens, this is ABSOLUTELY the driver's fault and it ticks me off as a manager) and if they drop the pizza itself (extremely rare).

Anything else is either We're Extremely Busy, Team member not properly trained gave the cook/driver wrong information, or Team member accidentally switched the orders up.

That's all the inside crew. Inside crew is responsible for almost every single mistake.

Driver just goes from A to B. If the order is late, it was late 4 minutes ago, when he arrived at the store from the previous order, got this order, and left. He's not taking 45 minutes to drive to your house. Any trip is like 5-10 minutes max. If the pizza is late, it was going to be late whether the driver moved fast or not, 99/100 times.

But hey, you're a customer withholding tip for lousy service. As much as this job sucks sometimes, and as much of the time it's not the driver's fault, I have never, ever, ever, ever said a customer needs to tip when they got lousy service.

The driver is usually just as much of a victim as the customer, but this is still your way of letting us know we did a lousy job.

I will offer a caveat- most of my customers tip nothing.

Unless you tell me you are upset with the service, tipping nothing does nothing.

You have to let me know there was a potential tip there, and it went away because of the lousy service. Tell the driver you're upset. WE LITERALLY CAN'T TELL, because half our customers treat us like dog turds anyway! That will encourage the driver to do better next time (if it was his fault) or he will tell the inside crew they're costing him money, and alert the manager that customers are getting upset due to some inside crew member's screw-up.

THAT works. PLEASE, do that. I guarantee you the manager will find out.

Even better, you are the sort of customer I encourage you to do this:

I'm a manager. Call me. Call me directly. Tell me you got lousy service and tipped the driver anyway.

Watch me BEND OVER BACKWARDS to make sure next time you order, you got a free pizza.

Why?

Because our company is great about one thing: We have a very strong policy of trying to ensure customer satisfaction.

Whether you tipped or not, doesn't matter: I need to know you had a lousy experience. You can even tell me you don't want anything, just reporting the lousy service.

Then, watch me go out of my way to ensure you order from us again, tell you you have a 5 dollar credit for lateness, or depending on how late, 10 dollar credit.

Customers LIKE YOU do not abuse our extremely generous customer satisfaction policies.

I want customers LIKE YOU to call me and tell me you're upset.

I couldn't give two turds about the customers that order every week and pretend the service was bad and immediately demand free stuff and never tip.

I don't care about those customers. I wish they'd stop ordering.

You, I want to hear from.

Call the manager on duty. It's my job to handle your complaints.

I only ever want to hear from customers like you, and I don't, because you're too NICE to call and complain.

CALL AND COMPLAIN! PLEASE!!!! I need to know that my team is screwing up! I want to make it better! I want to make sure I remember you... and next time, I want to personally cut and box your pizza and keep it in the warmer and send my best driver to you.

Customers who actually tip more than a dollar make up 80% of a driver's possible tip income.

I NEVER, EVER want to lose a customer like you. I could give a care if the twice a week never tips always rude customer orders from a rival company. I care about decent people who order pizza and have a bad experience.

I HAVE to try to help those jerkwads who never tip. I want to have the opportunity to help a customer like you.

My drivers ALL want to give you excellent service. You have to understand, you customers who tip more than a dollar?

I know you by name. I know you by address. I remember what your house frickin' looks like. You are why I deliver. You are why I manage. You're why I haven't quit in frustration.

I promise you, call the store manager. Explain calmly that your service was below satisfactory. I will do backflips to help someone like you.

And if the manager of that store DOESN'T, order from a different chain. THEY deserve your business.

Okay, you've convinced me. Next time the local Family Pizza screws up and puts cheddar on a pizza when I asked for mozzarella, I will phone YOU. Please PM me your phone number and I will give you the restaurant's number and you can tell them to please send Valka D'Ur the correct pizza. Tell them she always tips the drivers and has been a loyal customer for many years and always orders mozza instead of cheddar because of allergies.

Also please tell them that her customer loyalty is important because some pizza/pasta restaurants now charge extra for cheese because cheese is insanely expensive in Canada (at least in this region), and she could just as well spend her takeout budget on Chinese food or fish & chips where they don't charge extra for cheese and her favorite Chinese restaurant doesn't charge for delivery if the order totals over a certain amount.


Seriously, I tend to have very few problems with drivers unless they've done as you say - gotten lost (isn't that why they have phones and my number - so they can verify where I live and NOT argue about it with me?), forgotten the pop or even part of the order, or were rude for some reason. I've never gotten angry with them if the debit card machine didn't work, because that's not their fault. If none of these bad things occur, they get a tip. If there is a problem with the order itself (ie. the wrong kind of cheese or something missing that the driver couldn't have known about), I phone the restaurant and complain to them.

Pizza delivery is not a paper route.

No, it's not. Around here, very few kids have paper routes anymore. Since the paper is now delivered in the morning (from 6 a.m. on), they use adult carriers.

I confess I've never had a pizza delivered to me. In fact, I've only once eaten pizza from a place selling them cooked (I certainly don't like the look of those I see in supermarkets). And I ate that sitting in. It was alright. It didn't persuade me to try it again though.

But all this talk of pizza is making me wonder whether I shouldn't try one again.

Still, they're just fancy cheese on toast, aren't they? And I have made them from scratch at home. What a palaver, though!

You can pretty much put anything you want on a pizza. My favorite simple one is ham & mushroom or ham & tomato. Add mozza and sauce, and that's the kind of pizza I like. If I'm in the mood for something fancier, there's one that has chicken, lettuce, tomatoes, sour cream, taco sauce, and mozza (the menu says cheddar but I insist on mozza).

I never get them delivered either, so I don't have to pay the extra delivery fee and tip. That's something like a $6-7 difference, when I could just scoot over with the car and pick it up. I only order pizza at social gatherings anyway, and someone will always have a car.

That's great for you since you have a car. Not everyone does. That's why I have my food delivered.

 

[JohannaK]

Cheddar is not pizza cheese. Really. Mozzarella is the only right cheese for pizza.

 

[Takhisis]

I think a good part of the problem is the American car obsession. Many places here ask for anyone who's willing to do soem exercise and walk around the neighbourhood delivering chicken, sandwiches, pie, cake, pizza, meat, anything that can be put into an oven. It's easy, and it's workable because everything is within walking distance. In the US ou're forced to do it by car/motorcycle because there is no other way to get there on time.

As for the Italian-influenced subject of the Crown of Aragon posting right above me, provolone is a better topping. If you are a manly man, that is.

 

[Borachio]

Is Cheddar cheese at all? I have to wonder.

Mind you, if you're going to cook the stuff, you'd probably have a hard time distinguishing it from Gruyere.

What is this obsession with cooking cheese? Is it a Swiss thing?

 

[Takhisis]

Yes indeed, Jedi is a type of cheese.

 

[Borachio]

It took me a moment to get the joke.

But :smileabit:

Every supermarket I frequent has a selection of cheeses. You know the usual suspects: Brie, Feta, Danish Blue, Rochefort and such like neatly displayed on their own little shelf. And then....

.... acres and acres of Cheddar: matured, smoked and just plain nasty-looking Cheddar.

Yet, I've never actually seen anyone buy any.