Something you should know about pizza delivery

Let me correct my post above with the following - Scandinavia is not a country but a group of countries. All of which are quite small and have large oil reserves that can pay the freight on their socialist utopia. Everyone happy now? It is not as if someone did not understand the point I was trying to convey.

The embellishments concerning the dope smoking and basement dwelling were added by myself for humor. They might or not be true. Whenever I think of an adult delivering pizza for a living it makes me think of Talladega Nights when Ricky Bobby is riding the bus delivering pizza.

I still do not see the salt mine style slavery that is endured by pizza delivery. As I said in an earlier post it sounds like it is not worth the pay. In that case you should go somewhere else.


So dissenting opinions are deemed to be worthless? I did not realize that this was a free speech zone on a college campus :)



Nobody in the US is proposing anything that in any sense resembles socialism. So that's never more than a strawman you use because you lack an actual argument.
 
Well, it's a big area of debate in economics. But I tend to believe that yes it is. You'll find many arguments to the opposite.

But, ultimately, recessions and high unemployment happen because consumer demand is too low. Consumer demand is too low because wages are too low.
 
We could eliminate unemployment by instituting huge minimum wages? :huh:

Higher wages, including higher minimum wages, would result in lower unemployment.
 
So nobody would be laid off because of higher wages being imposed on all businesses? Higher mandated wages would not hurt any small business in America?

I just do not accept that every job out there in existence is one that is supposed to be a living wage for someone on their own or for their family. That has -never- been the case, so why should it now?


(cue "it is the business's fault for being a crappy business")
 
So nobody would be laid off because of higher wages being imposed on all businesses? Higher mandated wages would not hurt any small business in America?
Talking aggregates but more paying customers equal more successful small businesses.
 
The problem of this reasoning is that a massive wage hike would lead to a massive cost increase. In the mid-to-long term, the economy may grow so it will not matter, but on the road getting there on the other hand, it can break the backs of businesses. The employees of such businesses will simply lose their jobs.

A much better way would be to force banks to be run co-operatively, preferably with no shareholders at all either. It would force banks to invest in the public interest and not just in gaining shareholder profit, without destroying the fundamentally free market aspect of the economy and its benefits.
 
We actually have those. They're called credit unions, and they pretty much rock.
 
The problem of this reasoning is that a massive wage hike would lead to a massive cost increase. In the mid-to-long term, the economy may grow so it will not matter, but on the road getting there on the other hand, it can break the backs of businesses. The employees of such businesses will simply lose their jobs.
You're arguing that because wage hikes would come first, businesses could flop before the revenues come in. This hasn't really happened in history. I was thinking about it earlier, and most already-profitable businesses aren't running that margin thin due to labor costs, but even if they were, that's what loans and/or stimulus are for.

A much better way would be to force banks to be run co-operatively, preferably with no shareholders at all either. It would force banks to invest in the public interest and not just in gaining shareholder profit, without destroying the fundamentally free market aspect of the economy and its benefits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Infrastructure_Reinvestment_Bank
 
Higher wages, including higher minimum wages, would result in lower unemployment.

I don't recall seeing economists that support a minimum wage do so saying it will create jobs and reduce unemployement. Even unionists admit that when they drive up wages they sometimes harm other workers. I have seen many arguments in support of it but not that one. You didn't really argue it, either, though, you just kinda stated it as fact.

Well, it's a big area of debate in economics. But I tend to believe that yes it is. You'll find many arguments to the opposite.

But, ultimately, recessions and high unemployment happen because consumer demand is too low. Consumer demand is too low because wages are too low.

It also drives up the cost of living and distorts the cost of goods. It's not simply aggregate demand that Keynesians fixate upon(especially Robert Reich, I think he has aggregate demand porn on his harddrive). Additionally, the thing that irritates me about this argument is that if it's good for the economy overall, why are we only raising it a little bit? How do you arrive at an arbitrary level at which you stop? What is a "living wage" for the entire country when the cost of living has such enormous variablility from state to state and indeed city to city? For instance, $250k may seem rich to Obama but New York's senators and representatives were none too happy when he wanted to raise taxes on those people because $250k isn't "rich" there. What do you do if/when prices start to rise again?
 
It will not work unless a company is compensated first. If there is no money to be had, then an outside entity is going to have to supply it, like the government, or the foreign interest who end up with that money because of investments.

The local demand for a product will not increase. People are not starving because they cannot afford the necessities, they are starving because a vast majority of their finances go to outside interest. Some of that money is not recoverable. If the government steps in and inflates the economy, all it is doing is narrowly inflating the local economy and the majority of the inflation still goes to outside interest.

The reason that hiring people and paying them more works is because labor does provide an esteem into a person life, that is lacking and being fulfilled by the waste of unrecoverable desires. The other problem is that corporations need to become leaner and not squander the opportunity that hard work provides them. Every one is entitled to a good time, but not at the expense of ruining the economy.
 
The problem of this reasoning is that a massive wage hike would lead to a massive cost increase. In the mid-to-long term, the economy may grow so it will not matter, but on the road getting there on the other hand, it can break the backs of businesses. The employees of such businesses will simply lose their jobs.


That assumes that there ever would be a one shot massive increase in wages. Since that is obviously not going to happen, it's not something we need to worry about all that much.
 
I don't recall seeing economists that support a minimum wage do so saying it will create jobs and reduce unemployement. Even unionists admit that when they drive up wages they sometimes harm other workers. I have seen many arguments in support of it but not that one. You didn't really argue it, either, though, you just kinda stated it as fact.



It also drives up the cost of living and distorts the cost of goods. It's not simply aggregate demand that Keynesians fixate upon(especially Robert Reich, I think he has aggregate demand porn on his harddrive). Additionally, the thing that irritates me about this argument is that if it's good for the economy overall, why are we only raising it a little bit? How do you arrive at an arbitrary level at which you stop? What is a "living wage" for the entire country when the cost of living has such enormous variablility from state to state and indeed city to city? For instance, $250k may seem rich to Obama but New York's senators and representatives were none too happy when he wanted to raise taxes on those people because $250k isn't "rich" there. What do you do if/when prices start to rise again?

You answered your own question. We don't make policy based on "good for the economy". We make policy based on politics. Read above for arguments, political ones, arguing that some jobs shouldn't pay a living wage even if society demands those jobs be filled.

When I took Reich's class almost 3 years ago he was the first prof I had to show the paper that a minimum wage increase can increase employment, but he wasn't the last. I've argued it a bunch of times on this site and don't feel like repeating it all. I'd rather talk about raising wages in general.

More important is that you are asserting it causes inflation. But that's only if we push past full employment, which a function dependent on many variables but you can safely assume we're so far from full employment at this point in the USA/EU demand-side inflation is basically a myth. Notice the productivity-wage divergence graph above. That's a clue that massive wage growth wouldn't push aggregate demand beyond the limits of aggregate supply.


It will not work unless a company is compensated first. If there is no money to be had, then an outside entity is going to have to supply it, like the government, or the foreign interest who end up with that money because of investments.

The local demand for a product will not increase. People are not starving because they cannot afford the necessities, they are starving because a vast majority of their finances go to outside interest. Some of that money is not recoverable. If the government steps in and inflates the economy, all it is doing is narrowly inflating the local economy and the majority of the inflation still goes to outside interest.

The reason that hiring people and paying them more works is because labor does provide an esteem into a person life, that is lacking and being fulfilled by the waste of unrecoverable desires. The other problem is that corporations need to become leaner and not squander the opportunity that hard work provides them. Every one is entitled to a good time, but not at the expense of ruining the economy.
Well, just do it now. Or do it at the start of the next recession. At the beginning of recessions when budget deficits get super wide is when private sector savings go very high. You might remember all the cash US corporations were sitting on back in 2011 was coincidentally after a couple years of large deficits. We'd need another stimulus first to do it now, but we're so far from full employment we can afford another (big) stimulus.

Another way of putting it is, have an appropriately timed government stimulus first, like when we're below full employment, then mandate wage increases. It's a super winning, depression-busting combo.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying "a government inflates an economy". Do you mean inflates prices (inflation) or do you mean increases output? Usually "economy" means "output" which isn't something the word inflation is generally for.

Also I'm not sure what your point is about local businesses. More people buy flowers from the flower shop when times are good. Likewise, a small time plastics manufacturer from Missouri will get more orders from his clients around the country when his clients are selling more of their product that he helps construct.
 
Hygro: I think it just sounds so win-win it's hard to get your head around.
 
In theory, a world where wages are high means the cost of living is high too. Nonetheless, in an ideal world people can sustain their lives on their job, whatever job it is, because there is supposed to be a correlation between prices and wages. Now, what that nice graph in the last page shows is that this correlation, if it ever existed, ceased to be in the last few decades.

Of course an easy way to solve this is to raise the minimum wage, right? Well, it really isn't. Businessmen with profits love their profits and hate to see them lower. So they are just going to raise prices again and nothing will change. Prices are only correlated to wages when it is convenient to whoever has the power to alter any of them.
 
In theory, a world where wages are high means the cost of living is high too. Nonetheless, in an ideal world people can sustain their lives on their job, whatever job it is, because there is supposed to be a correlation between prices and wages. Now, what that nice graph in the last page shows is that this correlation, if it ever existed, ceased to be in the last few decades.

Of course an easy way to solve this is to raise the minimum wage, right? Well, it really isn't. Businessmen with profits love their profits and hate to see them lower. So they are just going to raise prices again and nothing will change. Prices are only correlated to wages when it is convenient to whoever has the power to alter any of them.


That assumes that they can raise their prices. And in many cases they cannot.
 
Hygro: I think it just sounds so win-win it's hard to get your head around.
The progressive rabbit hole goes so far in fixing our problems that I had to take a class by an IMF guy this semester just to make sure I wasn't dreaming.

Even inflation/deficit wary economists like my prof are following Krugman's lead. And Krugman is very carefully following the UMKC/MMT people at a safe distance, just pretending he isn't and denouncing them as he swoops on their positions.

Basically if you want to know why Krugman is the best pundit at predicting and describing politics, it's because, sure, he's a top notch economist, but who also out-Machiavellied every other economist in the world for the platform. The dude is a genius.

In theory, a world where wages are high means the cost of living is high too. Nonetheless, in an ideal world people can sustain their lives on their job, whatever job it is, because there is supposed to be a correlation between prices and wages. Now, what that nice graph in the last page shows is that this correlation, if it ever existed, ceased to be in the last few decades.

Of course an easy way to solve this is to raise the minimum wage, right? Well, it really isn't. Businessmen with profits love their profits and hate to see them lower. So they are just going to raise prices again and nothing will change. Prices are only correlated to wages when it is convenient to whoever has the power to alter any of them.

Prices are constrained by the market. Even for monopolies, but especially for most businesses which are in competition. Increasing wages will lead to increased prices in the long run, (I mean, hopefully, otherwise we aren't maximizing output and growth and opportunity) but the price increases will be dwarfed by the real wage and wealth gains if we run our fiscal policy correctly (better tax code, no more austerity).
 
I'd hope so. I mean, I know really little about economy, but there go my two cents.
 
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