pre-release info Songhai - Exploration Age Civilization

pre-release info
Looks like the civ ability got reworked and the OP is outdated (quick heads up to @The_J).
Thanks :hatsoff:.
@Laurana Kanan was fast enough to merge the old and the new thread (thanks Laurana), so that we luckily have only 1 discussion thread. I now updated the original OP with a copy of Sara's post, as this seems to be the most useful for this thread, so that nobody gets confused.
 
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Ohhhhh, I just love this design. Just... total crush on the Songhai design. I was already pretty sure I was going for Amina/Aksum for my first game, and now that I can see how those lead into and compliment this... well, I'm just really excited to see if Buganda continues the trend.

Also: Tomb of Askia looks amazing (visually.)
 
Digging into historical academic work on the Songhai Empire, I found a few references to the golden bangles that their elite foot soldiers wore. They were impressive for their fighting skills, but also because their outfits showed the wealth that the Songhai had. Think about it - you’re a conscripted soldier from a minor group and here come your counterparts marching towards you wearing more wealth than you can imagine TO BATTLE. How demoralizing would that be? Here I am while my crops go untended and cattle wander about unguarded and family are unprotected. Wouldn’t you rather surrender or better yet join them?
 
Digging into historical academic work on the Songhai Empire, I found a few references to the golden bangles that their elite foot soldiers wore. They were impressive for their fighting skills, but also because their outfits showed the wealth that the Songhai had. Think about it - you’re a conscripted soldier from a minor group and here come your counterparts marching towards you wearing more wealth than you can imagine TO BATTLE. How demoralizing would that be? Here I am while my crops go untended and cattle wander about unguarded and family are unprotected. Wouldn’t you rather surrender or better yet join them?
It would be pretty bleak if your enemy's field kit looked better than the clothes you wore on your own wedding day.
 
That’s exactly the point, I think. “How can we stand against an empire that can pay its foot soldiers such wealth?” Fear and demoralization were and are such weapons in war - from the terror of the phalanx to the scream of death-whistles, to the American “shock and awe” doctrine.
 
Digging into historical academic work on the Songhai Empire, I found a few references to the golden bangles that their elite foot soldiers wore. They were impressive for their fighting skills, but also because their outfits showed the wealth that the Songhai had. Think about it - you’re a conscripted soldier from a minor group and here come your counterparts marching towards you wearing more wealth than you can imagine TO BATTLE. How demoralizing would that be? Here I am while my crops go untended and cattle wander about unguarded and family are unprotected. Wouldn’t you rather surrender or better yet join them?
The Mamluks who finally faced Napoleon's soldiers in Egypt had the same attitude: they wore so many items of jewelry, including decorated weapons and armor, that French troops after the battle bent their bayonets into hooks to drag Mamluk corpses out of the Nile to get to the jewelry and gems.

And elite troops have always 'dressed up' for battle. Bears practically went extinct in most of Eiuope because of all the bearfur headgear that every grenadier and guardsman was supplied with in the 18th century. Braid and other fancy uniform trimmings were a large part of every countries' military budget, and the shakoes worn as headgear in the Napoleonic Wars almost all had canvas covers so the braided cords and decorations could be kept pristine and clean - until you went into battle, when all the covers came off to allow all the finery to shine.

As a British soldier's song put it, from the Peninsular Campaign in Spain and Portugal, from 1811:

"Bad luck to this marching
Pipe-claying and starching;
How neat one must be,
To be shot by the French!"
 
Seeing caravanserai appear here just feels out of place, just makes me think of Persia/Mughals/Afghanistan/Central Asia.

I don’t necessarily have a better solution - even though I’d prefer even a generic trading post over caravanserai. I used Zawiya in a personal mod for Songhai I made for civ 5, but those technically I think arrive later than the exploration age.

Kinda wanted to see a unique quarter here actually just on a vibe.
 
That’s exactly the point, I think. “How can we stand against an empire that can pay its foot soldiers such wealth?” Fear and demoralization were and are such weapons in war - from the terror of the phalanx to the scream of death-whistles, to the American “shock and awe” doctrine.
Morale historically has been the most important factor in a battle. People like to focus on the shiny gadgets and ability to kill something. If someone decides to run, their weapons and armor(which they probably tossed while running), no matter how good, are useless.

The best commanders throughout history were the ones that could beat the enemy without having to kill them all first. Make them run, and deal with them after. Also lead to less casualties for your side as well.

Same goes for commanders who lost and were able to prevent a rout, or able to come in and rebuild confidence in a broken army.
 
Seeing caravanserai appear here just feels out of place, just makes me think of Persia/Mughals/Afghanistan/Central Asia.

I don’t necessarily have a better solution - even though I’d prefer even a generic trading post over caravanserai. I used Zawiya in a personal mod for Songhai I made for civ 5, but those technically I think arrive later than the exploration age.

Kinda wanted to see a unique quarter here actually just on a vibe.
Yes, this is a correct criticism. The term is Persian and would be more at home in Central Asia. But the concept - a fortified trade post - applies here, and I couldn’t find a better term that captures that concept as well as caravanserai.
 
Yes, I'm also disappointed, not because the term doesn't fit Songhay but because I'd have liked to have seen the term given to any number of Exploration Persian or Central Asian Persianate civs. Though the Persian version could still be called a xân.
 
Mali was also mentioned. But based on the description, it could only appear in the Antiquity Age, which I really think is quite unlikely. However, the Ghana Empire would be a very fitting predecessor to Songhai, especially since it almost perfectly matches what is considered the Antiquity Age in the game.

.
I’d expect Wagadou (the Ghana Empire) to play like Songhai but in the Antiquity Age based on the fact it was one of the main driving forces for the start of the Trans-Saharan trade due to the introduction of the camel which makes it an even better predecessor as it’ll have good synergy with Songhai.
 
Echoing the same sentiment many others said here, really interesting to have another civ that play with the legacy rules of the age. But also really curious as many others here if those treasure fleet can be use on site or need something like, move to at least a different city territory.
 
The architecture looks awesome and the music sounds great! And the Kanta civic with Treasure Fleets from home cities sounds like it’ll be interesting.

I’m concerned to see that the actual art for the UU seems to be based off Edo/Benin Armor rather than anything from the Sahel though. Like, it’s a gorgeous unit model but it’s definitely not appropriate for Songhai.
 
The architecture looks awesome and the music sounds great! And the Kanta civic with Treasure Fleets from home cities sounds like it’ll be interesting.

I’m concerned to see that the actual art for the UU seems to be based off Edo/Benin Armor rather than anything from the Sahel though. Like, it’s a gorgeous unit model but it’s definitely not appropriate for Songhai.

This is sadly a pattern for historical Sahel cultures. Research seems to fall by the wayside. See Age of Empires 4’s fantastical Malian unit artwork.
 
This is sadly a pattern for historical Sahel cultures. Research seems to fall by the wayside. See Age of Empires 4’s fantastical Malian unit artwork.
It’s sorta understandable why this keeps happening if I’m honest. The material record for that region is actually very spotty from what I’ve seen. Not that I personally think that justifies the mistake.

There is stuff from like the Hausa and Kanem-Bornu who are at least Muslim cultures from the Sahel, as opposed to the Edo who are a coastal people that aren’t Muslim.
 
It’s sorta understandable why this keeps happening if I’m honest. The material record for that region is actually very spotty from what I’ve seen. Not that I personally think that justifies the mistake.

There is stuff from like the Hausa and Kanem-Bornu who are at least Muslim cultures from the Sahel, as opposed to the Edo who are a coastal people that aren’t Muslim.
Rewatching the video made me realise how it does actually seem to be based on Benin’s armour for some extremely weird reason.

From artistic depictions that exists of Songhai’s troops they all seem to be wearing turbans and still have the gold bangles (more specifically on their wrists and ankles). I doubt this may be updated to match that but it’s still a really strange mistake in the first place. Generally speaking when it comes to west Africa we usually have some more modern artistic depictions of various different rulers and their empires, etc. I do think however if a pivot was needed due to lack of info a Malian troop design from the similar era or a Hausa design may have made much more sense.

This would probably have made for a better reference image.
1733358116897.jpeg
 
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