Stability feedback thread

So, I somehow got to maintain a level of stability. However, very furious levels drop after the raze the city and in the study of new technology (maybe we should reduce these values​​?) I'd love to see all the effects of growth \ loss of stability in the game (for example, when studying technology -5 stability, razed the city - 10 and etc.) It's possible?
 
So, I somehow got to maintain a level of stability. However, very furious levels drop after the raze the city and in the study of new technology (maybe we should reduce these values​​?) I'd love to see all the effects of growth \ loss of stability in the game (for example, when studying technology -5 stability, razed the city - 10 and etc.) It's possible?

Spoiler stability.py :
Code:
if utils.getHumanID() == iPlayer:
		iRazePenalty = -10
		if city.getPopulation() < 5 and not city.isCapital():
			iRazePenalty = -2 * city.getPopulation()
		sd.changeHumanRazePenalty(-5)
		checkStability(iPlayer)

So for cities with >5 pop, the penalty is -10, and for cities with <5 pop, the penalty is -2*pop.


Regarding techs,
Spoiler stability.py :
Code:
# Civics (eras and techs)
	if iCivicOrganization == con.iCivicVassalage:
		if iCurrentEra == con.iMedieval: iCivicStability += 2
		else: iCivicStability -= 5
		
	if iCivicGovernment == con.iCivicTheocracy:
		if iCurrentEra >= con.iIndustrial: iCivicStability -= 5
		
	if iCivicReligion == con.iCivicPantheon:
		if iCurrentEra <= con.iClassical: iCivicStability += 2
		else: iCivicStability -= 2 * iCurrentEra
		
	if iCivicGovernment == con.iCivicCityStates:
		if iCurrentEra <= con.iClassical: iCivicStability += 2
		elif iCurrentEra >= con.iIndustrial: iCivicStability -= 5
		
	if tPlayer.isHasTech(con.iDemocracy):
		if iCivicOrganization not in [con.iCivicRepresentation, con.iCivicEgalitarianism, con.iCivicTotalitarianism]: iCivicStability -= 5
		if iCivicLabor in [con.iCivicSlavery, con.iCivicAgrarianism] and iCivicOrganization != con.iCivicTotalitarianism: iCivicStability -= 5
		
	if tPlayer.isHasTech(con.iUtopia):
		if iCivicOrganization not in [con.iCivicEgalitarianism, con.iCivicTotalitarianism]: iCivicStability -= 5
		
	if tPlayer.isHasTech(con.iEconomics):
		if iCivicEconomy in [con.iCivicSelfSufficiency, con.iCivicGuilds]: iCivicStability -= 5
		if iCivicLabor == con.iCivicSlavery and iCivicOrganization != con.iCivicTotalitarianism: iCivicStability -= 5
		
	if tPlayer.isHasTech(con.iNationalism):
		if iCivicMilitary == con.iCivicMercenaries: iCivicStability -= 7
		
	if tPlayer.isHasTech(con.iMilitaryScience):
		if iCivicMilitary == con.iCivicWarriorCode: iCivicStability -= 10

So techs that can hit your stability directly are Democracy, Utopia, Economics, Nationalism, Military Science. This is if you are running the civics that these techs obsolete.
 
So, I somehow got to maintain a level of stability. However, very furious levels drop after the raze the city and in the study of new technology (maybe we should reduce these values?) I'd love to see all the effects of growth \ loss of stability in the game (for example, when studying technology -5 stability, razed the city - 10 and etc.) It's possible?
Researching new technologies doesn't reduce your stability, unless you are running civics that obsolete with that technology. However, discovering a technology triggers a stability check in which your stability is calculated again. A lot of other factors could have changed in the meantime that resulted in a lower stability score.
 
Playing as the Netherlands, I got a -9 penalty for running "Mercantilism: Trade with wealthier Nations". What does this mean exactly? That I should switch out of Mercantilism? To be honest, such a huge penalty makes this civic very very bad... there is no reason to switch ouf of Guilds until you have Free Market available, both are just much better. I'd suggest to lower the penalty and maybe increase the :commerce: bonus from workshops and / or the :gold: bonus in the capital.
 

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It means you have open border agreements with civs that produce more commerce than you. The numbers are probably too high, yeah.
 
Um, yeah.
 
Don't have open borders while running mercantilism then. Doesn't sound that broken to me.
 
Don't have open borders while running mercantilism then. Doesn't sound that broken to me.

Exactly my thought, getting no commerce from foreign trade routes and having the East Indiaman only strengthens this solution.
 
From my last game as Egypt (last revision, "test-of-time-game"), year is 1700. Most of the world is severly unstable. China is more or less non-existant after the Mongols - even if they respawn, they quickly collapse afterwards.
 

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Okay, I think the recent instability in the late game is due to the economic stability mainly. I have reduced the base percentage of economic growth the economic score is based on, which should address the problem (commit might take a while since I'm in the middle of writing the new Congress code).

It might be even better to have a dynamic base percentage, but I have no idea what to base this on. Average growth across the world isn't suitable because it produces erratic results for me.

I will probably also change the war stability calculation to use war weariness instead of war success. The former seems more suitable after all, and is also more transparent to the player because it has an actual meaning ingame and isn't just an internal AI variable. The formula will stay the same, though.
 
With the last comment in this thread being from feb, I think by now we have had some more thorough experience with the new stability system. Here's some of my feelings on the new system. Feel free to agree/disagree/discuss!

What I like:
- Civs now have realistic collapses
- Civs can resurrect from collapsing civs (ie. Persia could respawn after Greeks collapse)
- Non-permanent effects for razing cities (yayy)
- Core population become hugely beneficial (If I'm the English, I want to build a prosperous England, conquer the world, and have my English cities contribute significantly to keeping my empire. Not skimp on England so my tech rate can survive, and have the bulk of my stability from the economic growth of colonies)

What I'm iffy about:
- Civ collapse can either trigger humongous resurrections or no resurrection at all at random (Greek collapse in my earlier example can have Persia stretching from Persia proper all the way to Athens... Another example is Moors collapse from a human Viking invasion of North Africa, and Cordoba goes independent instead of going to Spain). Why don't we have post-collapse city assignment based more heavily on stability map of surrounding civs?

- AIs have an even tougher time making and keeping friends due to frequent minor foreign crises: Best example here is EVERY Asian civ. China's neighbors all have different religions. Korea has religious instability as well as aggressive neighbors. And for some reason even Japan with 100% Buddhist cities will cancel OBs around the time of Tokugawa leader switch. The result is that Asian AIs have no OB bonus, no trade bonus, and a lot of religious hate, resulting in everybody being pissed off and virtually no AI-to-AI diplomacy possible.

- Crises results are too random and potentially severe: minor domestic crisis results in 25% chance of all cities to go into revolt for 3 turns? That's a potential 3 turn anarchy for a "minor" crisis. Minor foreign crisis results in 2 cancelled OBs.... Well, for the majority of AI civs that's all the OBs they could have....

- No benefit to gaining stability levels makes the stability system purely to punish with no rewards. A nominal reward for gaining stability level such as "all cities celebrate with 0 upkeep for 1 turn", or "all other AI civs will forgive 1 forgivable offense instantly" goes a long way to keep the game interesting and doesn't unfairly benefit the player.
 
Thanks for the feedback.

City assignment after collapse does take stability/settler maps into account, but also a number of other factors, including previous ownership and cultural influence. I agree that this is sometimes too powerful though, and we don't always want complete empires to emerge. Being too shy with this also has its downsides, however, because of the inertia rule, especially in earlier eras.

I agree that the other crises types are problematic, especially minor crises. More on that below.

I also like the idea of getting a minor benefit from hitting solid. Nothing as major as a golden age, but a temporary bonus depending on the category you're doing best in sounds good.


While I don't have the time to actually implement stuff at the moment, I've been thinking a lot about the stability system and what's working and what isn't. My current conclusion is that:

1) The previous ideal that stability calculations should only be made when a stability check occurs and therefore depend on the current snapshot of your civ's situation caused a lot of problems, because it meant the lack of long term data to base the stability on. The result was the unpredictability of the results in a number of categories. I have already moved away from this in the economy rating, and currently have ideas to do something similar for warfare and happiness (part of domestic).

2) There still are not enough ways to intentionally generate positive stability, or rather the ways that exist aren't properly balanced against causes of negative stability. There won't be a real paradigm shift here, I just have to put more effort into enabling this after I'm done with the changes from (1).

3) Expansion penalties for "normal" expansionism, i.e. the likes of historical empires, compared to domination victory expansionism. Punishing one of them appropriately either means not punishing normal expansionism at all, or punishing domination expansionism too much. And I want to do the former because controlling China as Japan should cause you trouble (for instance during an UHV game), even though China isn't nearly enough for a domination victory. I have a few ideas here, but currently I'm without a real solution.

4) The ubiquity of crises other than collapses and their disrupting effect on the game, and the relative rarity of partial collapses. I think the main job of the stability system is to check expansion. Partial collapses are a good feature in my opinion, but aren't applied often enough. Instead often other crises types get in the way. I will probably reduce the effect of these crisis types and make them occur less often, and only at lower stability levels. The intended result is that they're meant to give civs some negative side effects even if they aren't overexpanding, but to make partial collapses the main outcome of negative stability for those that are.

5) Positive effects from hitting solid have just made it into my list.
 
Let expansion stability be (partly) determined by how long you have controlled the territory? So yes, at first, holding China as Japan would cause a huge stability hit (in the expansion category), but as time goes by, this becomes less and less.

This would introduce a more strategic planning aspect to winning domination victories too; you can't just fast-tech to Assembly Line and conquer everyone with hordes of Infantry, for you'd be taking too much land too soon. You have to plan it out and do it gradually, over time.
 
Currently it already diminishes with cultural influence which is the best way to model this.
 
I am starting to loose sight about the future of new stability. So many changes and proposed changes :crazyeye: Latest SVN mouse over Expansion box reveals negative modifiers for razed cities only. As Germany I own London, Moscow, Istanbul, Paris, London and get no negative modifiers whatsoever for owning foreign core. It seems that Civics now play the most important role in stability calculations :dunno:

Is it possible to post somewhere statement of intent -- what should the ideal stability look like when all said and done?
 
There's a lot to extrapolate from my latest posts. It gets tiring to always only talk about it.
 
I know, so I am just waiting for the end result. My poll shows majority supports your overhaul, so I am trying to get used to this new feel.
 
Yeah, as I said in my previous post, I'm not happy with the current behavior too. It's more that I think I cannot say more in theory and just will have to try some things out.
 
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