Stalin's Contributions to History

That wasn't one belligerent power expanding, that was three working in concert, and then using their mutual need for political repression as the basis for co-operation. You could arguably say that nevertheless this was still unhealthy for world peace, given that it distracted the eastern Great Powers from French expansionism.

You could probably come up with a couple more counter-examples if you wanted to. The U.S. in the 19th century is one, because they were too far away and too largely populated for the European powers to want to do anything.
It was unhealthy for world peace because an entire country was wiped off the map. Doesn't that qualify?

Balance-of-power theory has no problems providing some kind of justification for naked aggressive acts like the partitions or Manifest Destiny partly because nobody ever defines what a balance of power actually is in a manner that means anything to all parties. To the Russians in the late 18th century, a balance of power meant that the European states were too tied up in their own quarrels to do anything about Russia conquering and otherwise subjecting Eastern Europe. To the Poles, a balance of power was a situation, essentially, in which their state survived, largely territorially intact, presumably with the assistance of some foreign power or other, depending on which Pole you asked (Prussia, Austria, and Russia were all thrown out for consideration at the time).

There is no objective measure of the balance of power because there is no objective measure of "power", and even if there is agreement on the substance of power between states, there is no universal opinion as to what constitutes balance between the powers of various powers. (:p) You might get historians arguing that the events of 1792-5 actually restored a kind of balance of power in Europe, since France had been uncharacteristically passive before that, while the Eastern states had been preying on the Polish cadaver and the Brits were at the time establishing hegemony over an entire subcontinent. Or you might get historians arguing that they destroyed any semblance of a balance of power, because, uh, France was overrunning and conquering tons of stuff.

My original comment, about balance-of-power theory making scavengers out of all states that adhere to it, is based partly on this. The logic of the Polish partitions was that one state's expansion had to be matched by that of other states, in order to keep a balance between those states. The same proposition obtained in Italy, where Bonaparte destroyed the Venetian Republic and handed it to Austria on the grounds of "compensation", all the while well aware that he had just given an enemy of his a rebellious province and taken away an invaluable buffer zone. And in Germany, where mediatizations were invoked so as to maintain the balance between Prussia, Austria, and a gaggle of Kleinstaaterei, all the while destroying intermediary bodies like the Church lands and a collection of minor territories. Any attempt to justify what Stalin and Hitler did on purely balance-of-power grounds - a desire to balance out a rival's gains by making some of your own - is fundamentally similar. The gains are almost always made at somebody's expense. The act of making those gains is inherently a threat to peace, not necessarily the geopolitical configuration that results.

At any rate, I won't pretend to disagree with whatever you were originally saying about Stalin and expansionism, and I won't pretend to agree with it either. Just my usual anti-balance-of-power rant.
 
This has nothing to do with the balance-of-power theory, unless that's a justification that an external country uses to intervene; which it's not, in this case. All I was saying is that a powerful country using its resources to invade and annex (or otherwise turn into a satellite) is detrimental to global peace between great powers, which was contrary to BuckyRea's argument that Stalin didn't disrupt the global order because he only invaded countries that nobody cared about.
 
Yeah, I wasn't really talking about that. Well, kind of, but not really.
 
For what it's worth, you haven't said anything I disagree with. I just think it's a bit of a tangent.
 
I feel it's wrong to attribute any kind of 'contributions' to a brutal dictator and mass-murderer like Stalin - just as it would be wrong to do the same for Hitler or Pol Pot. The evil they did so far overshadows any perceived 'contributions' that those become irrelevant. This goes as well for the "but Hitler built the Autobahns" type of apology as for the "but Stalin made the Soviet Union strong" type. Both dictators couldn't help but do some good along with the bad, but their primary goal was power.

As to the comparison which was worse - an irrelevant and childish comparison which we've argued to death on these very forums. Asking which was worse implies one of the two was better than the other - and IMO, a brutal dictator who kills or imprisons anyone he sees as a threat, including whole groups of people wholesale, is at the very bottom of the scale when measuring the worth of human beings. There is no further down to go, so neither is better than the other. End of discussion. ;)
 
I feel it's wrong to attribute any kind of 'contributions' to a brutal dictator and mass-murderer like Stalin - just as it would be wrong to do the same for Hitler or Pol Pot. The evil they did so far overshadows any perceived 'contributions' that those become irrelevant. This goes as well for the "but Hitler built the Autobahns" type of apology as for the "but Stalin made the Soviet Union strong" type. Both dictators couldn't help but do some good along with the bad, but their primary goal was power.

As to the comparison which was worse - an irrelevant and childish comparison which we've argued to death on these very forums. Asking which was worse implies one of the two was better than the other - and IMO, a brutal dictator who kills or imprisons anyone he sees as a threat, including whole groups of people wholesale, is at the very bottom of the scale when measuring the worth of human beings. There is no further down to go, so neither is better than the other. End of discussion. ;)
People jump on me when I say this about Napoleon.

"BUT HE MUST HAVE HAD SOME GOOD INTENTIONS!

HE'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN JUST A POWER-HUNGRY MEGALOMANIAC!

YOU'RE OVERSIMPLIFYING THINGS!"

If they don't do that to you I'll be deeply annoyed.
 
People jump on me when I say this about Napoleon.

Which is ofcourse odd, because Napoleon and Stalin were dictators from the same era... o wait, they weren´t. Come to think of it "brutal dictator and mass murderer" doesn´t really apply to Napoleon. Now how about Caesar? He actually was dictator. :mischief:
 
The Russian campaign killed half a million people.. that's pretty impressive even today.
 
People jump on me when I say this about Napoleon.

"BUT HE MUST HAVE HAD SOME GOOD INTENTIONS!

HE'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN JUST A POWER-HUNGRY MEGALOMANIAC!

YOU'RE OVERSIMPLIFYING THINGS!"

If they don't do that to you I'll be deeply annoyed.

And indeed, if anyone dared suggest any of this about Stalin, they would be shouted down as ideologues. Because both cannot possibly be true, that a man does good things and bad things.
 
People jump on me when I say this about Napoleon.

"BUT HE MUST HAVE HAD SOME GOOD INTENTIONS!

HE'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN JUST A POWER-HUNGRY MEGALOMANIAC!

YOU'RE OVERSIMPLIFYING THINGS!"

If they don't do that to you I'll be deeply annoyed.

Thanks....I think. ;)

Not to jump on you in my turn - but I don't see Napoleon in the same evil league as Hitler and Stalin. A brutal dictator? Certainly! But a mass-murderer like those 2? Nah..

Of course, he caused a lot of deaths with his wars - but if we put every warmonger in the same class with the likes of Hitler and Stalin, we devalue their evil.

I do draw a distinction between killing in war and slaughtering whole groups of people you don't like - your OWN people, actually, the ones you, as leader, are supposed to be protecting!
Alexander caused a lot of deaths with his wars - yet we call him 'the Great' and few think of him as an evil person. Napoleon was more brutal and further down on my personal scale ... but still far above Hitler and Stalin!
 
If they don't do that to you I'll be deeply annoyed.
Well, Dragonlord is oversimplifying things. But that seems to be his exact intention in order to highlight both's "evilness".
And indeed, if anyone dared suggest any of this about Stalin, they would be shouted down as ideologues. Because both cannot possibly be true, that a man does good things and bad things.
Judging what is good and evil in deed barely has any relation to what I would call "truth".
 
Because he was like you know good, he ummm liberated europe.
 
Because he was like you know good, he ummm liberated europe.

Is this sarcasm? Even if you believe this (it's wrong), this doesn't change the fact that "brutal dictatorial mass murderer" is all exactly accurate.
 
Is this sarcasm? Even if you believe this (it's wrong), this doesn't change the fact that "brutal dictatorial mass murderer" is all exactly accurate.

You can apply the term "brutal dictatorial mass murderer" to Napoleon. But, if you do it, you also need to apply it to a whole bunch of historical leaders, from Alexander the Great to Andrew Jackson.

Napoleon is responsible for alot of death but almost all of them are from war. He didn't kill a large percentage of his countrymen and, had he succeed in conquering Europe, he wouldn't millions of people because they were inferior.
 
You can apply the term "brutal dictatorial mass murderer" to Napoleon. But, if you do it, you also need to apply it to a whole bunch of historical leaders, from Alexander the Great to Andrew Jackson.

Alexander the Great did not commit "mass murder," unless you consider military campaigns to be so, which is an unconventional usage of the term. Andrew Jackson wasn't a dictator, but he was a brutal mass murderer, clearly.

Napoleon is responsible for alot of death but almost all of them are from war. He didn't kill a large percentage of his countrymen and, had he succeed in conquering Europe, he wouldn't millions of people because they were inferior.

I guess black people don't count.
 
Alexander the Great did not commit "mass murder," unless you consider military campaigns to be so, which is an unconventional usage of the term. Andrew Jackson wasn't a dictator, but he was a brutal mass murderer, clearly.



I guess black people don't count.

been around this one already and you studiously ignored my comments. If you read your article I still don't see how this amounts to a charge of genocide against Napoleon.
 
been around this one already and you studiously ignored my comments. If you read your article I still don't see how this amounts to a charge of genocide against Napoleon.

I didn't ignore it, though I might've missed it. Napoleon re-instated slavery in New France even though it was abolished by the First Republic. When the fighting resumed in 1801, Napoleon allowed the French expedition to do essentially whatever was necessary to subdue the Haitians, which lead to some gruesome results.
 
That's not his fault since it wasn't his intention. Also maybe the Haitians shouldn't have resisted, it was a war and sometimes war results in killings that's inevitable especially of warfare in the past.
 
The Haitian expedition was in a sense punitive, because the slaves, who had been badly mistreated, rose up in one of the most brutal insurrections, nearly slaughtering the entire french colonial population in the west half of the island. The french responded predictably, in which they were assisted by a large population of free blacks. Haiti was a rigid caste system at the time. I'm not defending French actions but to pull it out as an example of Napoleon's personal intolerance or brutality seems misplaced.
 
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