Successful Communism

Alassius, you should post here more often.

Thanks for the endorsement. Sadly, I don't have much endurance, and I write excruciatingly slow, which is why I tend to give up in these discussions.



Well, I'm going to have to concede at this point that I really can't keep up. I simply don't understand Marxist theory well enough to argue it, nor I am a formal adherent in the first place. I was probably playing devil's advocate, for the most part; a reasonable, informed critique of Marx isn't something that I expected, nor something I'm really qualified to engage with.

So, I concede the field to you, hand over my sword, bow, and so and so forth. I shall leave you and Cheezy, a far more able pinko than I, to slug it out.

Neither was I expecting such graciousness in your reply. It's far harder to concede than to convince, particularly in a medium where one is protected by anonymity. My respects to you.



:confused: How do you suppress individuality for greater individuality? Are you suggesting that people have different levels of individuality and that some people's individuality may have to be suppressed to increase others'? Can you think of a way in which this makes sense in real life?

Your original argument was that collectivism means obliteration of individuals, whereas communism aims for the good of distinct individuals, so they ought not to be compatible.

If by individuality you mean the liberty to do as one wish, there are two kinds of liberties: the negative, or the freedom from coercion; and the positive, or having the means to actually do anything. Traditionally the right thinks the former is the best way to provide the latter, whereas the left thinks talking about the former is meaningless if the latter is not already provided. Collectivism, as a form of the extreme left, follows the second logic and argues that before collectivisation, most people did not have the means to do what they wish anyway, so they could not enjoy individuality - think of wage slaves. Thus, instead of obliterating the individuals, collectivisation in fact increases individuality. Consider the aforementioned case where a million people have one dollar each, and one has a million dollars. If all wealth are collectivised, everyone would have two dollars, and correspondingly two dollars' worth of individuality.

Again, this isn't necessarily bad logic. If you measure individuality by material, it is clearly better for everyone to have two dollars each, because of diminishing returns of money. So suppressing the liberty, and thereby the individuality, of the millionaire, would increase the overall positive liberty, and so the collected individuality, of everyone. Nor would the right wing refuse similar reasoning. Apart from anarchists, most people would agree that a mad gunman expressing his individuality in a campus is generally a bad thing. Limiting his liberty may be a small cost in comparison with other students' lives, on which their individuality must depend.

Now, Marxism is something different. Because of affluence, nobody has to sacrifice his material needs for expressing his individuality, so the kind of individuality you can have must be greater than absolutely any other societies. There isn't any trade off to be made, unlike under collectivism. This is how Marxism achieves both individual well-being and individuality. Unfortunately, affluence proved to be a bit out of reach, so collectivism remained the norm for communist countries. As it happened, under collectivism it wasn't the case that everyone had two dollars. It was more like everyone still had a dollar each, and the people's commissars owned the remaining million instead of the millionaire who was sent off to a gulag. This is a distinction I want to stress: it is still theoretically possible, though I don't believe it, that a proper collective where everyone has equal share of rights and privileges can deliver prosperity. The misery in Soviet Union and others was not caused by equality. It was caused by inequality disguised as equality (hence harder to protest). Whether a truly equal society can be better than a capitalist society is a separate question.

Coming back to your original point, no, communism did not call for obliteration of individuals. Nor did collectivism claim to do so. Collectivism happened because Marx claimed it was the necessary route towards communism. It went wrong not because the theory was inconsistent, but because the theory did not prepare for when reality diverged from what ought to be according to the theory. Collectivism as it happened was very different from Marx's imagination; the only relation was that the arguments supporting Marx's socialism can and have been used to justify the corrupted version. This is the reason why people can legitimately claim that "true communism never happened".



Did any liberal philosopher specify what exact policies societies are supposed to come up with and implement? Might each society's preferences not be decided in each individual society?

Yes, for example, freedom of speech. So did Marx, say, collectivisation. Both schools of philosophy did prescribe exact policies, and neither managed to get it completely right. It turned out, however, that classical liberals were less wrong than Marx was.



Yeah, which is why it makes no sense to talk as if there are levels of individuality that are commensurable and as if they constitute quantities that can be traded between one another.
Nor does it make much sense to say you need a dictatorship to achieve anarchy. Or that the dictatorship is in fact democratic. Or that if I don't have to work any more I'll work just as hard. Unfortunately Marx was being very liberal in interpreting words. George Orwell's doublespeak wasn't pulled out of thin air.


Also, wouldn't the entire world pretty much have to be communist in order for it to work? I mean, if one country has successfully achieved communism for itself and another has not, wouldn't the non-communist country be able to easily conquer the neighboring utopia?

Hence the Marxist advocacy of socialism.

Not quite. Remember that historical materialism is deterministic. Marx did not so much argue for "communism is good for us, therefore we should have it." He was saying "once this and that conditions are met, communism will inevitably happen." He probably didn't think being conquered by a foreign power was a problem, because the countries that were able to invade their neighbours were probably the most developed countries, which would be the first to meet the revolutionary criteria. After they have converted into communism, surely they would not have to worry about lesser countries invading them.



One major problem I have with communism is the proposed way in which to implement it; I can't imagine investing sole power in a dictator and then expecting that person to give up all that power and dismantle the government. Anyone less than a saint would not want to give that up, in my estimation. For the record, I think living in a communist society is the most moral way to live. I just can't see any country ever really getting there.

Also, wouldn't the entire world pretty much have to be communist in order for it to work? I mean, if one country has successfully achieved communism for itself and another has not, wouldn't the non-communist country be able to easily conquer the neighboring utopia?

Forgive my noobishness. I only started sincerely learning about this subject last week. They never even taught us Marxist theory in literary theory, although I suspect they will in the graduate school I'll be attending.

If I may offer some advice, please try read the original writings by Marx and Engels, instead of airbrushed versions from later communists. They are dry, dull, and often just impossible to understand (which is why very few actually read them), but many contradictions and unrealistic assumptions made by Marx were watered down by later interpretations. For instance, the assumption that revolutions would happen to richer countries first. Or that Marx quite often argued democratic socialism was too weak to provide real benefits.

Engels was generally more readable than Marx. His The Principles of Communism is an introductory text in a Q&A format. It's a good piece to start with.
 
Your original argument was that collectivism means obliteration of individuals, whereas communism aims for the good of distinct individuals, so they ought not to be compatible.

If by individuality you mean the liberty to do as one wish, there are two kinds of liberties: the negative, or the freedom from coercion; and the positive, or having the means to actually do anything.

No, I think individuality is an entirely different creature from liberty. Certainly individuality seems to be predicated on some liberties, such as the liberty to hold beliefs. But short of mind control even the most totalitarian regimes cannot obliterate individuality completely, because taking away liberties is one thing but actually being able to stop people from doing anything you don't like is another.

Alassius said:
Traditionally the right thinks the former is the best way to provide the latter, whereas the left thinks talking about the former is meaningless if the latter is not already provided. Collectivism, as a form of the extreme left, follows the second logic and argues that before collectivisation, most people did not have the means to do what they wish anyway, so they could not enjoy individuality - think of wage slaves. Thus, instead of obliterating the individuals, collectivisation in fact increases individuality. Consider the aforementioned case where a million people have one dollar each, and one has a million dollars. If all wealth are collectivised, everyone would have two dollars, and correspondingly two dollars' worth of individuality.

Again, this isn't necessarily bad logic. If you measure individuality by material, it is clearly better for everyone to have two dollars each, because of diminishing returns of money. So suppressing the liberty, and thereby the individuality, of the millionaire, would increase the overall positive liberty, and so the collected individuality, of everyone. Nor would the right wing refuse similar reasoning. Apart from anarchists, most people would agree that a mad gunman expressing his individuality in a campus is generally a bad thing. Limiting his liberty may be a small cost in comparison with other students' lives, on which their individuality must depend.

There is no way you can quantify and divide individuality like that, so this makes no sense at all.

How about if I tell you to take your innate individuality and sum it with all other persons' then divide the total by the number of people to get your real collectivised individuality? Does that make any sense to you? Well, that's what you're suggesting.

Alassius said:
Now, Marxism is something different. Because of affluence, nobody has to sacrifice his material needs for expressing his individuality, so the kind of individuality you can have must be greater than absolutely any other societies. There isn't any trade off to be made, unlike under collectivism. This is how Marxism achieves both individual well-being and individuality. Unfortunately, affluence proved to be a bit out of reach, so collectivism remained the norm for communist countries. As it happened, under collectivism it wasn't the case that everyone had two dollars. It was more like everyone still had a dollar each, and the people's commissars owned the remaining million instead of the millionaire who was sent off to a gulag. This is a distinction I want to stress: it is still theoretically possible, though I don't believe it, that a proper collective where everyone has equal share of rights and privileges can deliver prosperity. The misery in Soviet Union and others was not caused by equality. It was caused by inequality disguised as equality (hence harder to protest). Whether a truly equal society can be better than a capitalist society is a separate question.

Coming back to your original point, no, communism did not call for obliteration of individuals. Nor did collectivism claim to do so. Collectivism happened because Marx claimed it was the necessary route towards communism. It went wrong not because the theory was inconsistent, but because the theory did not prepare for when reality diverged from what ought to be according to the theory. Collectivism as it happened was very different from Marx's imagination; the only relation was that the arguments supporting Marx's socialism can and have been used to justify the corrupted version. This is the reason why people can legitimately claim that "true communism never happened".

I can tell you now that your understanding of theory seems to suck big time. I don't think there is any way to convince you of anything unless it can be reduced to "this person has one dollar and the other person has two".

What you're doing here is virtually the same as constructing a strawman. You create your own definition of individuality and collectivism with your own rules about when they mean what, create a web of relations connecting the two and material wealth, put them together in a fashion that appears logical and present the result as a critique of Marxism. I have seen badly-written Leftist essays like that. It's quite ironic that I'm reading something similar coming from the other side.

You could've cut all of the above down to the simple statement of the usual critique of Communism - that it aspires for freedom but ends up with a dictatorship. But an aristocrat might have said the same about democracy during the French Terror. It's no criticism of a theory that people have applied it badly. At worst it just indicates that the theory is difficult to apply. I'm not willing to give up on it simply for that reason, though.

Where you fail completely is in coming up with a coherent theoretical critique of the theory.

Alassius said:
Yes, for example, freedom of speech. So did Marx, say, collectivisation. Both schools of philosophy did prescribe exact policies, and neither managed to get it completely right. It turned out, however, that classical liberals were less wrong than Marx was.

Freedom of speech is not a policy. Sheesh, you don't even know your own liberal politics :rolleyes:

Alassius said:
Nor does it make much sense to say you need a dictatorship to achieve anarchy. Or that the dictatorship is in fact democratic. Or that if I don't have to work any more I'll work just as hard. Unfortunately Marx was being very liberal in interpreting words. George Orwell's doublespeak wasn't pulled out of thin air.

People do tend to be liberal about interpreting words, including yourself, evidently. But here I'm particularly unsympathetic to your complaint. The dictatorship of the proletariat is democratic, but it is also a dictatorship because it's the uncontested rule of the workers. As a capitalist you wouldn't have much if any say in such a society, but as a worker you would. Is that indicative of doublespeak or of some nuance?

Alassius said:
Not quite. Remember that historical materialism is deterministic.

Alassius said:
If I may offer some advice, please try read the original writings by Marx and Engels, instead of airbrushed versions from later communists. They are dry, dull, and often just impossible to understand (which is why very few actually read them)

Yeah, and at this rate no one should be surprised that you don't know much.

Apparently, Marxist approaches that are not deterministic have the singular characteristic of being dry and boring, so there really is only the deterministic version, which you can simply knock down by saying "but look at the USSR!"; and that's why Marxism sucks.
 
In a literal sense, "republic" or "res publica" means "rule of the people", a concept very similar to democracy. In common usage, it refers to a state which lacks a formal monarchical or theocratic government. It only refers to representative democracy for a select few on the American right, who neither represent the greater mass of people, or, it would seem, are particularly interested in communicating with them in anything resembling an effective manner.

Unless, of course, you want to claim that United Kingdom is a republic, while, say, the Republic of Cuba is not, in which case I can only say "feel free"...

Res means thing, publica means public. Translation, the public thing, the law!
 
Are soviet socialist republics, or islamic republics, or people's republics, still republics? Or is that a misnomer...?

Maybe technically a poorly run republic.

A fixed body of law not subject to majority whim, and one which gives people the proper rights, is a proper republic and the sense I use the word in.

The US isn't really a full republic anymore, we're in a dangerous transition to democracy.
 
But law is subject to majority whim. For crying out loud, laws are VOTED ON, and a majority vote decides whether they pass or not.

Do you need me to show you the "I'm just a bill" video?
 
But law is subject to majority whim. For crying out loud, laws are VOTED ON, and a majority vote decides whether they pass or not.

Do you need me to show you the "I'm just a bill" video?

I've seen that;)

That's why the first 10 amendments should be locked. Then we'd have no health care bizarreness. Do I need to type the 10th for you?

Let me ask a question, let's pretend (Though it's outlandish) I started a poll saying "Do you want Own Glyndwr banned? Everyone in the forum but you votes "Yes." Should you be banned, or should the mods protect your right to be a member of this community since you haven't broken any rules?
 
Maybe technically a poorly run republic.

To all of them? I can think of one 'People's republic' that seems to be doing quite well these days....

A fixed body of law not subject to majority whim, and one which gives people the proper rights, is a proper republic and the sense I use the word in.

The US isn't really a full republic anymore, we're in a dangerous transition to democracy.

Now I had always assumed that the two were not mutually exclusive, being that the US had a presidential executive selected by democratic means. But I see that you already have a healthy catalogue of input to this argument, so I'll just refer to past threads...
 
To all of them? I can think of one 'People's republic' that seems to be doing quite well these days....



Now I had always assumed that the two were not mutually exclusive, being that the US had a presidential executive selected by democratic means. But I see that you already have a healthy catalogue of input to this argument, so I'll just refer to past threads...

Oh, the president is selected democratically, this I know. We're still a republic.
 
I've seen that;)

That's why the first 10 amendments should be locked. Then we'd have no health care bizarreness. Do I need to type the 10th for you?

Let me ask a question, let's pretend (Though it's outlandish) I started a poll saying "Do you want Own Glyndwr banned? Everyone in the forum but you votes "Yes." Should you be banned, or should the mods protect your right to be a member of this community since you haven't broken any rules?

No. If everyone said that I should leave, then I'd be fine leaving, provided that there was a stipulation in the forum rules saying that if in a poll, a majority of people wanted me out, then I'd leave.

This is how the constitution works. There are passages in the constitution explaining how the constitution is amended.
 
Oh, the president is selected democratically, this I know. We're still a republic.

That you are. I still don't see how having a constitution that grants inaliable rights is somehow invalid in say, a parliamentary democracy like Canada or the UK, but I'll drop it, given that this is a thread on an economic system, not a governmental one....
 
Res means thing, publica means public. Translation, the public thing, the law!

Res publica does not translate like that. The point is that the Romans used "res" to refer to any affair or business that they had, and "publica" means not really public but political. Thus res publica really just means "the affairs of the state". "Lex" is law, not "res publica".
 
Res means thing, publica means public. Translation, the public thing, the law!
Your translation is dog latin, nothing more. And why "the law" (*exclamation mark*) should be the only public thing is beyond me.

Health care is also a thing, and it's public. Oh my god! Republicans must be supporting health care!!! :rolleyes:
 
Apologies for the delayed reply.

Also, I will not be taking up Traitorfish's baton, since I don't care to read through the whole thread and figure out what the crap you two are talking about.

Look, what you think, or Kautsky thought, about the meaning of that phrase is irrelevant.

No its not. Its what Marx meant by it. That you can't separate the modern meaning of dictatorship with the Marxist meaning is not my fault. Do you also think that Marx thought that capitalist society had a strange and taboo sexual attraction to physical objects?

What matters is what the communist ruling elite interpreted it. Historically the phrase was used to suppress dissidents.

No it wasn't, and no, they didn't justify their dictatorship with it. They justified it because of the great peril the socialist movement was cast into.

The biggest unsolved problem of communism is exactly how to reconcile the ideal and the reality. You can't just talk about how it should be. You need a way to make sure the next revolutionaries think of it as you do. If they don't listen to you, and insist on thinking a dictatorship means a dictatorship, what you get can only be the blood of hundreds of thousands all over again.

I can't think of any socialists today who think that socialism means dictatorship. In fact, they explicitly argue that it means democracy.

You ought to know that Marx himself would have ostracised you, just for mentioning the possibility of wrestling capitalism into giving workers rights and better pay, don't you?

I merely made an observation about the causes of those reforms.

At any rate, no one said Marx was an infallible prophet. We know he was wrong about many things.

That's not what I'm talking about. I meant the newly privileged bureaucracy. You have to have someone to organise production, don't you? To distribute products? To tell you that you should be working instead of slacking? If you need someone to do these things, they will necessarily have more freedom than others who follow orders. Or are you going to say that these jobs were rather more burden than freedom, like Napoleon did?

There you go again with the strawmen. Its not constructive to your argument to assign such positions to me and then set about destroying them.

There is no reason for you to assume that this "production bureaucracy" would exist, or that every facet of the economy and of life would have to be managed by some all-encompassing government agency. No one is talking about that. You seem to think that all socialists hold the USSR up as the pedestal to which all their movement aspire, and that it was the most perfect expression of socialist and Marxist ideas, or at least the most natural. None of this is true. For all the technical crap you seem to know about Marxism, I shouldn't even have to explain to you why this is so.

Most modern socialists understand the deficiencies of the Soviet system as well as its successes, and accordingly believe that a mixed economy probably works best. Both the market and planning system have their places. This is, at least, the position of every non-Maoist leftist party in the United States.

Also, be careful: "and they will starve" sounds suspiciously like what Stalin would've told gulag prisoners. Any idea how you are going to prevent those in the next revolution? Or do you think gulags were a good thing?

Actually, it is what Lenin said.

State and Revolution said:
He who does not work, neither shall he eat.

And no, its nothing like the state labor camp system. Either you are wholly ignorant of this phrase, or you're playing stupid to make me look like a Stalinist.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and explain this. Again.

It is simply a modification of the "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" philosophy, by filling in the caveat that one could receive but not contribute. The obvious exception to this rule is those who cannot work by no fault of their own, or really should not be. This includes children, the elderly, and the mentally and physically disabled. If everyone is to receive in kind, they must contribute in kind. Surely you can see why eliminating free riders is required, it is, after all, the main criticism of the Right. And what a vapid criticism it is.

Pray tell, exactly how different are they? For precisely what reason would "socialism that would arise from a mature capitalist society" be any better?

It will have evolved the processes of providing a surplus of demanded and required goods, and produced an educated, liberal populace with a firm grounding in democratic principles. Such a people would accept no less than democracy. Do you think Americans, or Britons, or Frenchmen today would let anything else rule over them?

If I remember correctly, you were the usual one who sides with their oppressors, not me.

One of us is defending centuries of ostentatious privilege and oppression. And one is defending socialism.
 
Also, I will not be taking up Traitorfish's baton, since I don't care to read through the whole thread and figure out what the crap you two are talking about.
By "leaving you [Alassius] and Cheezy to slug it out", I simply meant continuing the debate which you were already engaged in, as you do above. I did not mean to imply that the burden of my arguments should be shifted on to you.
 
Here's an interesting video about motivation:


Link to video.

The only thing is I don't think the label "purpose-maximisers" makes much sense, since I don't think we can maximise purpose. Purpose-oriented as opposed to profit-oriented would be better.
 
Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

-Winston Churchill


their will be a time when men look back on democracy and see it as evil as Communisim
 
I'm already afraid to ask, but what is your enlightened way of government then?
 
I'm already afraid to ask, but what is your enlightened way of government then?

Well if you said to a man back in the year 1700A.D that one day men will walk on the moon and fly like birds you would be could a madman
 
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