Sullla's AI Survivor Season Eight - Playoff Game 2 Thread

Eauxps I. Fourgott

Victoria's Valkyries
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Sullla's AI Survivor Season 8 is continuing on September 6th, on Sullla's Twitch Channel at noon EDT.

Our first playoff game proved to be a Financial showdown, as after brushing the low peaceweights out of the way, Mansa Musa and Elizabeth battled it out in a tense race to separate peaceful victory conditions and a very close finish. This game, the high peaceweights will once again hold the majority, but there are no Financial leaders, so should be a slower game that allows for different sorts of twists and turns. The heavily religious natures of the map's two warmongers will also spice things up. Can ex-champion Justinian and last year's finalist Ramesses move forward to the Championship, or will we see some fresh faces in that game instead?

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You can watch the preview, read the written preview, and join the fun by making your own prediction. (And view the current picks!) As always, all are welcome to discuss and continue to follow the season in this thread!

And if you want yet another contest, check out the picking game presented by @Fippy !
 
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Seeding Watch:

There's not much to report this week. Justinian I is already secure in the #3 overall seed, and while a win will get him closer to the top two, there's no way he catches them this game. Gandhi does have a chance to move up: a win puts him at the very top of Pool Two, and he'll displace Stalin in Pool One if he manages to pair it with at least one kill. The remaining four leaders are all well short of seeded status.



Got this posted nice and early because I'm jumping to write up my analysis of this map! We have a pretty unique continent shape for this one and I'm all for that. One side effect, though, is that the three leaders at the ends of the snaky continent seem to have a pretty clear advantage. While this map is relatively spacious anyway, those three leaders will also have considerable secure backlines, and should all be major players at the very least. None of the three central leaders are good fits for those positions either, in my view. Accordingly, I think it's extremely likely that one of the outer three leaders is going to win, and there's an excellent chance that another will come in second place as well.

As mentioned, I don't think that any of the three central leaders is particularly good, at least not in the positions they find themselves in. That latter phrase especially applies to Gandhi, who might stand an excellent chance of winning from another position, but I think is pretty screwed here. I think Gandhi is one of the worst leaders possible for a central starting position, between his general military weakness and dogpile magnet tendencies, and that applies here as well. He's one of the closest neighbors of both Justinian and Brennus, the map's two low peaceweight warmongers - and he's almost certain to practice a different religion from at least one of them, making war at some point pretty much a certainty. I don't think Ramesses or Augustus will hesitate for long to dogpile him as well if they end up with a different faith. While his position isn't otherwise bad - capital copper should ensure he doesn't instantly fold, and overall his surrounding land is quite green - I don't think he's going to be able to enjoy it in peace, and he'll bite the dust sooner or later. His land might be nice, but it will fuel somebody else's victory, not his.

Then there's Frederick, who has the famed double gold starting position that made a bunch of fantasy coaches go crazy over the Game 3 leaders when we were bidding. Big whoop! Pacal just showed us how easy it is to squander that advantage, and his position was in all other respects far better than Fred's position in this game - to say nothing of Pacal being a far more effective AI as well! Other than the gold and nearby furs, and I guess a nice river flowing through the middle of his territory, Fred's position doesn't have anything to recommend it, and he'll be one of the most cramped leaders on the map. The gold will help him keep pace early on, but I don't think it will do anything more than that. Maybe if he gets really lucky with some dogpiles, he'll have a shot at second place, but I think he's extremely likely to be an irrelevant this game, and would be completely shocked if he pulled out in front. And I say this about my fantasy leader!

Brennus I think has the best odds of the central three. The crucial question for his game (as well as Justinian's) is going to be: who founds the opening religions? There are three leaders with Mysticism starts, plus another who might well pursue a faith out of the gate and snag it if the others don't commit. I think Justinian and Brennus are likely to win any direct races with Gandhi thanks to their starting rivers, but really this is going to be unpredictable, coming down to the die rolls of who chases Meditation and who chases Polytheism. But it will be very important. If Brennus and Justin follow different faiths, they will almost certainly come into conflict at some point, and if that happens then Brennus is screwed. I don't see him conquering Justin, and with a hot war with the most militaristic other leader on his hands, he's not going to be able to snowball and will fall out of contention. This is not his Wildcard 2 spot! On the other hand, if they follow the same faith, they will be BFFs and can unite against the world, and if they do this then I think geography and the leaders they're up against give them a good chance in this scenario. There's no Mansa/Liz to beat up on them, neither is a tech-crazy lightweight like Pacal, and they're at the end of the snaking continent - they could definitely roll it up together and both move on to the Championship, and this is how Brennus would move on.

But regardless of whether he works with or against Justin, Brennus is clearly in the weaker position and would almost certainly play second fiddle. He almost certainly will not be able to peacefully expand as much, he's more likely to make boneheaded early tech choices, his capital looks pretty mediocre, his starting land in general is choked with trees to make for a slow start, and his lower peaceweight and reduced distance makes him very likely to take the brunt of any aggression from the peaceniks. If he gets lucky with the spoils of war and grows much larger than Justin that way, maybe he could win. Otherwise, his best hope is to work with him, aim for that second place spot, and be happy he can make it to the championship at all.

As for the three stronger leaders, Justinian has the most intriguing situation on this map, the one I'm most curious to see how plays out since I don't really know how good his odds are. Diplomacy is somewhat stacked against him in this high peaceweight crowd, and his capital isn't that great. The points in his favor are considerable backlines for good early expansion, comfy position at the end of the continent, great for conquering up the map, and his strong track record. Again, if he and Brennus work together, I think they can accomplish some good stuff against the peaceniks and Justin almost certainly moves on to the Championship in that scenario. But will he be able to contend for the win, or will Augustus or Ramesses on the other end of the map be untouchable? I really don't know. And what if he and Brennus fight? Brennus is clearly screwed in that situation, but is Justin going to fall too far behind as well? Or does he still have a chance? A lot undoubtedly depends on how things unfold on the other end of the continent. My gut feeling is that Justin is slowed down too much in this scenario and can't keep up with the peaceniks, but I'm really not sure.

Augustus Caesar has a lovely position on this map and I think he has the best odds of moving on to the Championship. There's a lot of land around him to fill up with Imperialistic, and it's very green. There are a lot of trees to slow down his early game, but sheltered as his position is, I think he's going to have the time to cut them down, develop his land, and unlock its full potential to become a monster. He has the instant capital gems (and potential early gold as well!) to keep his economy humming in the early game and not crash. His neighbors are all close in peaceweight and won't declare war at Pleased, which leaves it likely that he's safe early on, and later is free to go further afield and chase after the low peaceweights - and if the low peaceweights do fall on this map, Augustus is by far the best fighter of the peaceniks and should profit handsomely. Perhaps a Ramesses culture train or Justinian conquering on the other end of the map beat him out for first place, but I think something has to go horribly, horribly wrong for Augustus to miss out on a top two spot. I've convinced myself here that he's going to be one of those clear map winners in the alternate histories when the time comes; we'll see if I'm correct!

Finally, I have the least to say about Ramesses. Like Justin and Augustus, he has a lot of room to expand, but his land isn't as rich as Augustus's. Wars playing out the right way could put him in front, and he's the most likely leader to win this map by culture, but overall I don't like his odds quite as much, and if he and Augustus follow different religions and come to blows, I definitely favor Rome. I don't think this is an especially interesting position, to be honest, but it does give the pharaoh solid odds.

I'll decide on my pick for certain later on, but right now I'm inclined to vote for Augustus as the winner. Justinian or Ramesses is the most likely runner up in that case, I think, and Gandhi is almost certainly going to be my pick as first to die. I'll mull it over a while though.
 
(moving this here) Wow..just watching the preview video for game two. Maybe the strangest map I've ever seen in Survivor. Justy has an interesting position.
 
Justinian/Ramesses/Ghandi Space T325.

Justinian has a decent setup, but really either of the two Eastern leaders could take it home. I went with Ramesses as 2nd because I'm a bit more squeamish about the forests AC has to deal with. Maybe I'm being a bit too cautious, given how wild a season this is.
 
Bren, Gandho and Freddie could get a bit boxed in or at least one or two of them. Rambo and Gus have quite some room so both should not suffer for cities. I do like Gus's land despite some jungle action. Fred has a god cap but we've just seen that that doesn't always mean success. Justy should secure his position well down there in the Hook, so I expect him to be a heavy favorite.

Bren is really the odd man out here on a peacenik map. Justy is more aggressive but his neutral peaceweight helps him diplo-wisee.
 
Will the double gold curse continue with Frederick the worst AI?
Can Ramesses sneak win a culture victory?
Will Augustus be able to plot a war and use pretorians?
Can Gandhi stalemate a 1v1 war against Justinian and do his culture thing?
Is there a bad luck for Justinian to not find a religion and become total irrelevant?
Should Brennus go for any tech path other than finding a religion to stand a chance?
For how much worse would it be for both of them if he finds a different religion than Justinian?

Lets find out

For me comparing Ramesses land vs Frederick is kind of like Mansa vs Pacal of the last game.

This time what I wish to happen is parallel to what community thinks. No hammurabi diplo this time :)

Justinian/Ramesses/Ghandi Space T325.

Justinian has a decent setup, but really either of the two Eastern leaders could take it home. I went with Ramesses as 2nd because I'm a bit more squeamish about the forests AC has to deal with. Maybe I'm being a bit too cautious, given how wild a season this is.

This is the exact same entry I have with few turns later, mine is 322 or 323 and something with 10 wars :D

I was half way split between going for Ramesses culture victory vs Justinian space. Then I liked probabilty of a space victory a bit more. In case ugly Augustus wins.. yikes.
I believe if Ramesses finds a religion he can spread to Augustus instantly through rivers. Since aggression from Augustus and Frederick are his biggest concern that can be prevented. He usually techs faster than his neighbours under same size quality land. Or just culturally crush them.
I don't have much words for others. If Brennus builds great lighthouse, Augustus benefits less with his future fishing cities on his south.
Gandhi capital looks like it moved to west. Double corn double copper land checks out. Probably one tile south of the lake between him and Augustus. I wonder who gets there.
I certainly would like to see Ramesses as season 8 champion and I am already determined to vote for him if he goes to final.I want him top two.
 
I don't have much to add to Eaupx excellent analysis... except the conclusions I'm drawing differ somewhat.

Spoiler First to Die :

This is probably the biggest difference: I think there's a heavy favourite in that category, but that favourite is Brennus, not Gandhi.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe Gandhi will die, and that he has decent odds of dying first, but Brennus should beat him to it more often than not.
There's a good chance that Brennus and Justinian won't share a religion, and that would almost garantee Brennus dying first. But beyond that, Freddy is also almost garanteed to fight Brennus early, and while I believe Freddy's long term prospects are inexistant, he should be strong in the early game. And a garanteed 1v1 in an unfavourable diplomatic environment is a very strong first step towards a fatal dogpile.

The other good candidates for FTD are imo Gandhi (always, of course) and Ramesses.
Although I've seen enough Domination wins by the Egyptian leader that I don't share the usual disdain for his military prowess, here, in the case of a not-so-unlikely early war with Augustus... yeah, I don't fancy his chances. At all.

FTD : Brennus >> Gandhi / Ramesses

Spoiler Winner :

Unless he's placed in a lamb-to-the-wolves scenario (Seasons 4&5 playoffs for instance), Gandhi somehow always manages a coupla wins. So a troll win by Gandhi is always a possibility.
But a possibility I'm going to discard.
Ditto for a Freddy win. Could happen, but very unlikely imo.

So yeah, the winner has to be one of Justinian, Augustus, or Ramesses.
And frankly, I don't know that either should be a favourite.
Ramesses should have a lower survival rate... but can win from a weaker position (Culture is faster and doesn't require a dominant position). So the latter makes up for the former?

Winner : Justinian / Augustus / Ramesses

Spoiler Runner-up :

I suppose that Freddy might slip into second place in some games.
I don't believe for one second in the Justinian + Brennus conquer the world scenario: Brennus would need to be alive for that. ;)

So the runner-up should most of the time come from the same pool as the winner: Justinian, Augustus, Ramesses.
Except... I don't think the scenario Augustus + Ramesses first and second (whatever the order) very likely: their coexistence would weaken them, so Justinian would be stronger. In that case, either Justinian wins, or Ramesses wins by culture and Justinian is second.
It'll be one of (Augustus, Ramesses) and Justinian.
Simple maths in that case tells that Justinian should be twice as likely as either Augustus or Ramesses to be the runner-up.

Runner-up: Justinian > Augustus / Ramesses

Spoiler Victory Condition :

Culture for Ramesses, Space for Justinian and Augustus.

Domination could happen, I just don't think it's likely: any emerging snowball should be countered by a better tech level + large size. Even though no one's Financial on this map, the tech pace should be very fast as the favourites as good techers and the land is pretty good.
A Domination scenario would happen in the case Augustus and Justinian would be the dominant powers and fight it out, and with them on opposite ends of this map, I don't think either can crush the other before one of them launches.

As such, this should be a rather fast game.

Victory type: Spaceship > Culture
 
I think Ramesses takes culture win easily here. I know most people think Auggy wins out in the east but I actually expect Rammy will expand better, spread religion to Auggy and pleaselock him, and culture pressure him and ultimately win out. The war chariots also will give him better odds at nabbing any babr cities that pop up (don't say Augustus has praetorians, that guy has never sent a praetorian outside his borders in his life).
Ramesses 1st / Justinian 2nd / Gandhi FtD
 
Freddy has great stuff (more than just the gold mines) and i wouldn't count him out..one bad Pacal example isn't enuf ;)
+ he only has to fear Brennus early in this peaceful crowd, who he should out-tech easily.
 
On some further reflection...

I'm higher on Justinian's chances now. If he does end up fighting Brennus, are all of the peaceniks going to just sit back and watch? Probably not. They're probably going to dogpile Brennus. Thus this should translate into a quick partial conquest for Justin, and he should be okay diplomatically as long as he doesn't end up as the only Christian or something like that. Thus I now agree that he has high odds of a top two spot.

Despite a lot of voices of support for him (especially in the Discord), I'm still dismissive of Fred's chances. I'm also still not convinced about Ramesses and feel he's the third wheel on the Justin/Augustus train. I still think Augustus's position is fantastic and will not budge on that.

Therefore, my official prediction will be an Augustus space win with Justinian as the runner up.

As for first to die, the Brennus argument is compelling, but I'll just play the odds here. Gandhi's trait combination of PW 10/Central Start has to make him the favorite in this category.
 
Playoff Game 2 Announcement is now up on the Main Page.
 
1st - Gus
2nd - Justy
FTD - Bren
Wars - 6
Victory - Space
 
Going with the favorites now? ;)
Well, at least I didn't pick Justy to win although he should. :D Augie did get a reasonable amount of votes. Fred would be a good underdog pick but he still doesn't excite me much as an AI.
 
First glance: What a strangely shaped map! Gives Justin a pretty big edge, I'd guess?

Second glance: Maybe a good chance of a turtle-culture game by someone, with 3 culture leaders in play.

Third glance: This would be really juicy if Augustus was Julius. Iron capital. Gandhi + Ramses neighbors. Alas.


General thoughts:

Like 'em:
Fred with 2x gold, wet corn + mining tech, should start fast.
Augustus with gems, corn and iron, and mining tech, also good starter. Nice back line land. Low chance of dying with friendly neighbors.

Iffy:
Justin - tucked away with big land + the traits to expand into it. Better if he can work that gem before a jungle grows on it. With no war at pleased, could find himself friendly with a culture winner like Rams. If he can't dominate, can he win space before someone wins culture? I have doubts.
Gandhi - If he had Rome's spot, I'd say heavy favorite. But he's got rougher neighbors, and may have early commerce trouble.
Brennus - not bad, but usually a single war-monger on a peaceful map fares poorly. Gandhi has copper, and Fred should start fast and has iron, so I expect he'll attack early against metal, and fail.
Rams - nile is okay. decent variety of resources. but just not big on this leader to win any games.
 
Hmm....

Possible scenario:
Brennus and Justin found first 2 religions. They both start with myst, and a commerce tile, and Gandhi does not have a commerce tile.
That might also slow down culture, and open up space for Aug.

Possible scenario 2:
Brennus and Gandhi found first 2 religions. Brennus's religion spreads to Justin down the river. They team up and beat up everyone else.
 
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