Sullla's AI Survivor Season Eight - Playoff Game 2 Thread
- Thread starter Eauxps I. Fourgott
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Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
Sullla kiss of diplo.
Saxo Grammaticus
Clerk
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And then Augustus gets a similar corner plus sea start in the championship much like his earlier rounds, hmm... Will be interesting to see whether he can take his econ game to Mansa Musa!
One of these days I want to do a deep dive on cottages and green tiles.
With them is frequently first in tech, can build wonders first, spaceship wins, and lots of culture from slider.
A Brennus who builds farms, do they have to conquer a neighbor with cottages?
Or will Brennus build them himself?
With them is frequently first in tech, can build wonders first, spaceship wins, and lots of culture from slider.
A Brennus who builds farms, do they have to conquer a neighbor with cottages?
Or will Brennus build them himself?
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
They will have to conquer. That's why losing out on all that sweet Gandhi land was such a bummer for Justinian.
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
Keler
Prince
What a game so much twist on that FTD like seriously... coin flip.
Ramesses religion can spread, Justinian religion can't...
All it needed was to spread Brennus.
Once again Stalin attacking Napoleon case. Low pw attacks the other lowest pw neighbour for no reason. This season is nightmare.
Now Frederick proved that god capital< trash ai
Ramesses zero expansion was total shocker. A big nightmare that led Augustus able to settle twice bigger than anyone. And a very high quality land too! Ramesses thus ended up having slower tech rate than triple gold Frederick, double size empire Augustus, and heck even Gandhi with troll Vandal city. Gandhi built statue of Zeus and all aesthethic wonders. Justinian shockingly gave up Vandal like that?
Of everything that happened,Gandhi deserved to come as runner up so so much more than anyone else except Justinian. Probably wouldn't repeat in AHs... we will see
Notice runner up has lower end game score than Justinian's highest score during the game. If Augustus wasn't total runaway with landgrab maybe he could have a chance.
At least there won't be Frederick with zero votes on the final game. Gandhi can easy win culture it seems. Probably our next champion is Gandhi, not Mansa.
Now it is probably clear to all in doubt why Frederick was counted out by everyone with that golden start.
Ramesses religion can spread, Justinian religion can't...
All it needed was to spread Brennus.
Once again Stalin attacking Napoleon case. Low pw attacks the other lowest pw neighbour for no reason. This season is nightmare.
Now Frederick proved that god capital< trash ai
Ramesses zero expansion was total shocker. A big nightmare that led Augustus able to settle twice bigger than anyone. And a very high quality land too! Ramesses thus ended up having slower tech rate than triple gold Frederick, double size empire Augustus, and heck even Gandhi with troll Vandal city. Gandhi built statue of Zeus and all aesthethic wonders. Justinian shockingly gave up Vandal like that?
Of everything that happened,Gandhi deserved to come as runner up so so much more than anyone else except Justinian. Probably wouldn't repeat in AHs... we will see
Notice runner up has lower end game score than Justinian's highest score during the game. If Augustus wasn't total runaway with landgrab maybe he could have a chance.
At least there won't be Frederick with zero votes on the final game. Gandhi can easy win culture it seems. Probably our next champion is Gandhi, not Mansa.
Now it is probably clear to all in doubt why Frederick was counted out by everyone with that golden start.
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
Many such cases of an AI just being left alone to peacefully expand and just tech their way to a technology lead that can't be matched.
One thing I learned from watching this season is that you really can't predict if an AI is just going to implode by choosing to throw the game via horrible decisions. Decisions that don't make sense even from the gameplay mechanic perspective.
I don't know which was worse this game: the consecutive cringes from Ramesses horrible settles, or the one MEGA cringe from Justinian surrendering back that Gandhi city for peace while on the verge of wiping him out with Brennus.
Fippy
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We should still remember: it's mostly random stuff.
There's no "Freddy bad leader" - just coding that sometimes makes AIs look silly
The game before he got some praise for a perfectly timed attack. This game he got unlucky "war checks" and never started.
I noticed he actually had knights pretty early (and longbows). Everything was ready, but AIs are not coded to be consistent in Civ.
There's no "Freddy bad leader" - just coding that sometimes makes AIs look silly
The game before he got some praise for a perfectly timed attack. This game he got unlucky "war checks" and never started.
I noticed he actually had knights pretty early (and longbows). Everything was ready, but AIs are not coded to be consistent in Civ.
Keler
Prince
So true
Well I see your point, with war checks especially, not happened dogpile mission on Gandhi, but Frederick repeated his famous Assembly line before rifling routine. His coding is bad for ai survivor settings. If Ramesses of all people with terrible early game expansion had not chose to go culture slider but tech steel too and plot war on him, we could end up seeing Ramesses on the final as runner up. Frederick is the worst ai in my current tests I need to share sometime
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
100% this. People seem to give the AIs more credit than they're worth. I still think the tiers (outside of maaaaaybe the very top seeds?) are totally coincidental.We should still remember: it's mostly random stuff.
There's no "Freddy bad leader" - just coding that sometimes makes AIs look silly
The game before he got some praise for a perfectly timed attack. This game he got unlucky "war checks" and never started.
I noticed he actually had knights pretty early (and longbows). Everything was ready, but AIs are not coded to be consistent in Civ.
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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Some leaders have very solid foundations.
Justi: middle peaceweight, no matter who's in his games they can become friends (or targets if he needs expansion).
Starts with wheel so never "doesn't have anything connected" scenarios. IMP supports expansion, SPI means no dumb switches anarchy. Cataphracts.
Mansa: same with SPI, and FIN.
Wheel again + mining, workers can always do something. Skirmishers make his cities significantly saver early. Likes culture..pretty much the only consistent victory condition they push.
HC: great traits again. Less likely to be targeted early by warmongers.
Has agri so workers can do something even if he goes religion first. His UU doesn't die to barb archers like other warriors.
Rome: Praets did bring some success to both leaders for sure.
Gandhi: we all know what he will do Can work out or not, but he will usually try.
Cathy: big fan favorite in earlier seasons. Slipped a bit now (or actually a lot) cos she's a warmonger in disguise..and AI wars are random luck.
They all start with more than what Freddy has, and in some cases with almost unbeatable more. All imo.
Justi: middle peaceweight, no matter who's in his games they can become friends (or targets if he needs expansion).
Starts with wheel so never "doesn't have anything connected" scenarios. IMP supports expansion, SPI means no dumb switches anarchy. Cataphracts.
Mansa: same with SPI, and FIN.
Wheel again + mining, workers can always do something. Skirmishers make his cities significantly saver early. Likes culture..pretty much the only consistent victory condition they push.
HC: great traits again. Less likely to be targeted early by warmongers.
Has agri so workers can do something even if he goes religion first. His UU doesn't die to barb archers like other warriors.
Rome: Praets did bring some success to both leaders for sure.
Gandhi: we all know what he will do
Can work out or not, but he will usually try.Cathy: big fan favorite in earlier seasons. Slipped a bit now (or actually a lot) cos she's a warmonger in disguise..and AI wars are random luck.
They all start with more than what Freddy has, and in some cases with almost unbeatable more. All imo.
I agree, but on the other hand Gandhi in code is nearly the same as Hatshepsut, if anything even more peace-oriented, and with a worse Civ package. Yet one is Pool 2 and the other last place.
Mansa vs. Liz is also a good example of leaders with very similar personalities, and until this season a large gap in AI survivor results. But at least in that case you can argue Mansa has slightly better traits + starting techs.
Mansa vs. Liz is also a good example of leaders with very similar personalities, and until this season a large gap in AI survivor results. But at least in that case you can argue Mansa has slightly better traits + starting techs.
danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
Everybody but Auggy was a moron in this game. 
a pen-dragon
Prince
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I do not know if it is true, but I imagine the AI were created with tech trading in mind, with the NTT optinon just being an afterthought. IMHO turning it off weakens some more than others, especially regarding almost comic refusal to research essential techs, which could be traded for as soon as a few other people have it, effectively skewing relative AI strength.
That being said I understand the reasoning for turning it off.
That being said I understand the reasoning for turning it off.
Thrasybulos
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Damnit, just one off both on number of wars and victory turn! 
And the worst is that I had gone for 9 wars initially, then thought "Hmm... this could be a 6-war game, let's pick 8 instead to be within 3 should that happen". And I also was about to input turn 308, but I checked what people had selected, saw that there were several "308" picks, but no "309" pick, so went for 309 instead.
That said, I fully agree with Fippy that having 15 points out of 33 based on pure luck picks is silly.
I think I know why Sullla likes it: he wants categories that get decided on the very last turn to have "drama" until the very end. But honestly, he could just have people pick a number from 1 to 200 and do a random.org draw at the end of the game, that would achieve the same result.
So... this game.
With Brennus FTD and Augustus winning, we got what should be a fairly standard outcome, didn't we?
Well, yeah, I think so... but I think the game scenario was waaay into outlier territory, actually.
Gandhi surviving: maybe not outlier, but pretty uncommon imo. Finishing in second-place: I bet that never happens in the AH.
Justinian completely crashing his eco and falling a full era behind the other civs: definitely outlier. The reason Justinian is so strong is not because he makes religious allies (that was in AP times), it's because in spite of not being Financial, he's one of the best eco leaders in the game... with warmonger tendencies!
Ramesses utterly botching his Cultural victory attempt: another definite outlier. I've seen Pericles fail hard that way quite a few times. I've seen Gandhi also fail that way... once. Never Ramesses. So that has to be a <1% scenario.
Ramesses getting the 2nd religion: not the most likely scenario, but not crazy either. Going straight for Monotheism after getting getting the Polytheism religion: now that puts it into outlier territory!
I expect that what we saw from the other three leaders (Augustus expanding well, getting strong both economically and military, Brennus being weak and getting murdered, Freddy doing nothing) should be reproduced a lot in the AH, though. The one thing we didn't get to see, and which should happen a fair amount of times is conflict between Ramesses and Augustus.
And the worst is that I had gone for 9 wars initially, then thought "Hmm... this could be a 6-war game, let's pick 8 instead to be within 3 should that happen". And I also was about to input turn 308, but I checked what people had selected, saw that there were several "308" picks, but no "309" pick, so went for 309 instead.
That said, I fully agree with Fippy that having 15 points out of 33 based on pure luck picks is silly.
I think I know why Sullla likes it: he wants categories that get decided on the very last turn to have "drama" until the very end. But honestly, he could just have people pick a number from 1 to 200 and do a random.org draw at the end of the game, that would achieve the same result.
So... this game.
With Brennus FTD and Augustus winning, we got what should be a fairly standard outcome, didn't we?
Well, yeah, I think so... but I think the game scenario was waaay into outlier territory, actually.
Gandhi surviving: maybe not outlier, but pretty uncommon imo. Finishing in second-place: I bet that never happens in the AH.
Justinian completely crashing his eco and falling a full era behind the other civs: definitely outlier. The reason Justinian is so strong is not because he makes religious allies (that was in AP times), it's because in spite of not being Financial, he's one of the best eco leaders in the game... with warmonger tendencies!
Ramesses utterly botching his Cultural victory attempt: another definite outlier. I've seen Pericles fail hard that way quite a few times. I've seen Gandhi also fail that way... once. Never Ramesses. So that has to be a <1% scenario.
Ramesses getting the 2nd religion: not the most likely scenario, but not crazy either. Going straight for Monotheism after getting getting the Polytheism religion: now that puts it into outlier territory!
I expect that what we saw from the other three leaders (Augustus expanding well, getting strong both economically and military, Brennus being weak and getting murdered, Freddy doing nothing) should be reproduced a lot in the AH, though. The one thing we didn't get to see, and which should happen a fair amount of times is conflict between Ramesses and Augustus.
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