Team Game - Isolated Pacal (Deity)

[dutchfire]

Uxmal - This city is kind of tricky. We have 1 first ring forest, but do we chop it into a granary or do we chop it into a monument to get more forests and more river tiles? It's going to have 3 of it's own river tiles for cottages + 2 shared with Chichen and shared gems with Lakamha. We would probably be ok for a bit without a border pop, but I'm not sure that's ideal. There's not going to be much food here to whip so getting those other forests would help a lot with getting the library, in particular. Trying to wait for a library here to get a border pop might be problematic... 90H is a lot for a city with no forests and no food.

Right now I'm thinking chop first forest into monument and build a farm there. Cottage the other 2 jungle tiles. After border pop there's 2 more forests to chop for granary and library and a couple more river tiles for cottages. Improvements needed: 3 forest chops + 1 farm + regular cottage (after border pop) + 3 jungle cottages. ~50 or so worker turns needed.

Do we really want to chop a forest (and spend 10 natural hammers) to get access to two new chop opportunities? Pre-math, this is essentially spending 4 worker turns to get the opportunity to get +10 hammers later (costing additional worker turns). Seems like a poor payoff to me. (Question: How many hammers do you get for chopping outside cultural borders? That's also a waste, but might be preferable to spending 30 hammers on a monument if we get so desperate to chop)

In terms of workable tiles, the 4 riverside greens that we have should be sufficient for some time.
I agree that doing a farm first might be preferable to speed up growth and whipping. Perhaps good to think a bit deeper on how many farms we want and how long we want to keep them.

To what extent does this city *need* a library soon? If we take getting Monarchy as our main short-term goal, does the library pay off?

 

[Izuul]

Might be worth doing some rough calcs on Uxmal. I think waiting for library there for a border pop will take too long. Granary first is probably still best as Lain said, but monument might need to be built next regardless and that still likely means a whip. Without a border pop that city doesn't really have enough tiles of its own. And the border pop grabs the forests.

So maybe chop into granary and build a farm there on that tile. Whip monument at size 2.

Gems should be finished in 2T right? 2 more turns to get a worker onto the forest by Uxmal. 3T to chop. 7T total. That's still 4T before the city grows so that's fast enough to collect some food before growth (which should make granary > whip monument better than monument > whip granary). We can whip the monument at size 2 a few turns later, and then when it regrows to size 2 we should have a cottage ready. Any cottages finished before that can be worked by Chichen.

It's painful building all of these monuments in this game (i usually really prefer libraries for border pops), but monuments seem to be the best choice in every city here so far.

 

[Lain]

Can build a Monument after Granary, but I wouldn't whip it. There are quite a few green tiles between CI and Uxmal, don't think we need river tiles necessarily, regular green ones are good enough + available. CI will also not work all its tiles nonstop (will be whipped, hire specs etc) -> so Uxmal should have enough tiles at any given time even withouh a border pop, for now. It's sufficient if they become available by Mona imo. Which a regularly built Monument will give us anyway. Whipping just seems too painful in such a city.

So that's a no on 5th worker in Lakamha then? Just want to point out that there won't be any "good" times to build them later. Once Writing is in we want libraries and once Monarchy is in we want to grow to size 10+ everywhere. Having a work force now and even pre-building stuff for Monarchy that can't be used yet is useful. Especially once we stretch our empire with cities #5 and #6. Will be happy to have enough tiles improved then. Worst case, we can cut jungle outside of culture borders (Uxmal comes to mind), build roads for quicker settler transport, hook up health stuff etc. There is enough to do.

Can see some value in a settler though. 5th pig city could also whip a worker 2 -> 1, worst case.

 

[Fippy]

Will add something tomorrow, lost track of time today sorry.

 

[Fippy]

I guess one part to consider would be if we mind double whip anger for some time in Lakamha, or if we are happy with scientists + fish while we cannot grow.
I like gems for Uxmal, extra hammer will be more useful here than in Lakamha, so the 4th good tile would be 1se river (lake can be used by Mutal).

Then again, not sure how fast we actually would have to whip that library..gold gathering first before teching to Monarchy?
So there might not be much double whip anger.

With gems, monument can be built without whipping (agree, too painful here).
Farm on forest river for +3 food.

I think we could have 2 workers for pigs city without a 5th one now, Lakamha work should be done until we whip that settler.
Mutal could build another worker after library with copper (or before maybe, if we gather gold anyways).
I like that a bit better than worker now and settler in Mutal.

 

[dutchfire]

Might be worth doing some rough calcs on Uxmal. I think waiting for library there for a border pop will take too long. Granary first is probably still best as Lain said, but monument might need to be built next regardless and that still likely means a whip. Without a border pop that city doesn't really have enough tiles of its own. And the border pop grabs the forests.

3 riverside grasslands and 1 non-riverside grassland just for Uxmal (currently covered by 2x jungle and forest), as well as two grassland hills (covered in jungle, probably not worth it to develop for now), as well as a shared riverside gems, two shared riverside grassland tiles and three shared non-riverside grassland tiles. That seems like plenty to me. Border pop adds only 2 riverside grasslands and 2 non-riverside grasslands.

 

[Lain]

Played a few turns, but hell broke loose. Also important new information. I just put the whole report in spoiler, because otherwise there would be 10 screenshots in 10 spoilers and that's more annoying to read I think

Spoiler :

Lakamha put overflow into settler as discussed, also moved units so they could assist.



I was rather unhappy with the barb moves next turn though. New barb archer appeared, making it more complicated.



The main problem here was that if it came down to it, Uxmal's survival depended on a ~90% fight (barb archer vs wounded axe in flatland) ... I wanted the Woodi 2 warrior in range for that. So I decided to go with this setup. Also queued an axe in Lakamha just in case.



If archer threatens Uxmal, it's possible to move Woodi 2 warrior there and have an extra defender... obvious problem with that is it exposed a jungle-hill for the other barb to move on. Or you know, he attacks, dies and solves our problems. Or not.



As discussed, double protection for Uxmal "needed" unless we want to gamble.



Makes the gem situation more complicated though... we have one (wounded) axe, one warrior and 4 workers in the area. Most importantly, we want the gems improved. Could discuss about how important that is, but I kind of gave it priority not to kill too many worker turns, so...



Improved gems as planned, defended by axe + warrior across a river. Lakamha hammers into axe and will whip 1 pop if archer threatens... also means the road building worker was interrupted though. Sadness.



Of course we could have delayed the gems, retreated to city etc... but I didn't like that. What if new barbs come and we end up delaying forever. Also Uxmal situation is not so stable... 3rd axe solves all problems. Not ideal though with anger stacking in Lakamha now. Maybe slow-building the settler could be an option? Hm.

Anyways, the axe in Uxmal won on defense but had to heal... woodi 2 warrior ventured into the jungle, I wanted to know if it even makes sense to start chopping for Uxmal or not. Found some goodies. Moved cautiously to make sure no barb sneaked past in the east... can check the coast next turn.



Not sure what that means for our settling plan... oh yeah, barb continued to threaten Lakamha, forced an axe whip ... and continued to be a major nuisance.



That's why defending sucks.. well, thought a bit about how to deal with that. Then just attacked at 66%, had another axe in position so "no problem". And of course....



Won 5 XP now. Not like the situation relaxed though, with new threats coming. That bastard actually has almost 10% >_> ... good that emergency axe is in place, would take some real bad luck to lose Uxmal.



Also made the questionable decision of finishing grass cottage and pasturing pigs one turn later. But it was nearly done because of wasted worker turns (barb) and CI will grow on filthy coast at this rate.

Main question for me is, how quickly do we expand to 6 cities now? Or just the new gems, pigs when closer to Monarchy?
Stick to whipping Settler + Library in Lakamha?
More workers?
6th settler from where?

What I think is basically... we give up on every idea of an academy right now. Delay libraries / GPP a bit in favor of expansion. 2 GS by Astro are enough. Mutal is not really the best capital anyway. And with 2x gems + FIN cottages we reach Monarchy in no time, 6 cities or not. I would still suggest running 3 x 2 scientists ... 2x Astro bulb and golden age when we push for Rifling + civic changes. But can discuss that later.

I urgently suggest using pig-mine in Mutal to build a worker in 5T right now and then grow with pigs for library/settler whip, what do you think? Has nothing to build except warriors and Lakamha needs the lake for growth.. reserve whip for settlers+libraries instead. No brilliant tiles to grow on right now and while whipping is probably more efficient than stagnating, we can't whip everything. Can justify slow-building a worker with EXP me thinks. CI takes a cottage while Mutal works pigs + mine (only needs pigs mine for three turns though... 14+14+14+9+9 hammers = worker). Something like that.

Anyways, I felt the developments warranted some new discussion. Curious about the best solution here.

 

[Fippy]

Fun times

I think you are putting a bit too much pressure with workers on yourself, it's all still fine cos sea tiles are okay with Fin.
Jungle "panic" did not help i guess.

Would suggest Mutal takes lake for 1t for 3t growth, and we continue gaining some size back cos we always have good commerce tiles around.
I would free it from settler or worker tasks for now, and focus on library when we can whip cos it's our Cap and gains most with Palace.
Can also be used for first scientists.

CI has good growth soon (especially if we give Pigs now and then) and could do settler.
Also puts less pressure on our workers if we whip one there, less tiles needed.

 

[Fippy]

2 philos are colliding a bit here
I feel you want more workers, while i value pop in Mutal more currently.
Not sure how we should manage that, i dun want to put my playing style on you or so, we can surely get another worker in Mutal if it's more comfy.

 

[Lain]

It's okay for me . Not like I have less fun because we vote against workers. I experience other perspectives and maybe change/improve my playstyle. All good and one of the points of playing in a team.

When I talk about more workers, I also worry about future Monarchy. After Monarchy it will be nice to grow all cities to size ~10 "immediately". Need for improved tiles will explode and existing workers can't keep up, so they have to start preparing now. Also more workers means = more farms for Uxmal = better growth (only limited by health, but size 10 with fresh water and EXP is no problemo, maybe we find some more resources). A few extra gpt now seems a small price to pay for that . Especially if we add 2nd gems next (we should, right? Has many forests for quick start + river ... better than pigs).

A quick worker now would also be a good (last) use of pig-mine and justify me keeping it one turn longer . Hm, at Monarchy we will have 6 cities probably (should be maximum in isolation for now). I would like to have about 8 workers by then. We have 4 right now so probably some compromise is needed. Just makes me a bit nervous, that's all . Monarchy is not thaat far away.

With pig pasture we can grow Mutal to size 6 and whip library nps. Agree about settler in CI. Lakamha grows to size 4 now, generates a bit of overflow and whips into library? It's important we generate some GPP in at least two cities before Monarchy... because then we want to grow 10+15 turns on full food.

 

[Fippy]

Okay, CI needs pigs for 2 more turns so maybe the compromise we look for can be Mutal worker at size 5.
We would not delay our boat?
No warrior needed yet, so i think we should delay completing him.

In Lakamha we are stuck with unhappy and scientists i guess, but as you wrote that should be fine cos we need those points.
So yup i think settler into library for 2 more whips works best.

Agree that another gems city will be better first than pigs.

 

[dutchfire]

Glad I didn't have to play that

The woodsman warrior can move 1SE and back 1NW next turn to check the coast, then move slowly south when Chichen has a border pop. Revealing the coast will be important to determine where to settle near the gems.

 

[Lain]

CI keeps the mine for completing boat of course . I would still start worker now and then take pig mine in 2 turns. With a bit of micro the worker can be finished in 4T I think, possible to grow faster with pigs after that.

But I take any worker I can get , so waiting for size 5 would be fine with me~

 

[Fippy]

Fine with me, worker now

 

[dutchfire]

Who will play?

 

[Fippy]

Would you feel comfortable with the current situation, Dutchfire?

 

[dutchfire]

Okay, I will play, probably only 1 or 2 turns since there's a few decisions coming up.

 

[dutchfire]

Played a few turns.
Changed Mutal to worker
Science 60% to complete AH, no horses discovered.

On the interturn, our axe survives (1.0/5), so we're safe for now.

Warrior scouted sea, no seafood.
1 worker moves to the pigs
1 worker is chopping riverside jungle at Lakhama (I considered sending this one over to the pigs as well, but thought it would cost too many turns moving.)
Two workers are ready to cottage the riverside grassland shared by Uxmal and Chichen.

Builds set for this turn are placeholders.
Screenshot of the south:

 

[Fippy]

Join if you want to take part in this forum game guys, never too late.
My vision would be 5+ players having played turns, and in the end everybody gets credit.

Game details, Lakamha can delay warrior imo no real need (using sea tile over mine).
Wastin Time might call this "pro tip" , my opinion on doubling workers..almost never worth doing if there's 1 turn moving in between (on normal speed).

"Never work unimproved tiles", i would not sign that.
Worker turns can be more valuable than getting an improvement a bit faster.

 

[Lain]

Yup, we are playing for long-term development. So the objective is: Most improved tiles in 20/25 turns. Moving two workers on the same forest/jungle/hill conflicts that. A quicker cottage now doesn't help us. The worker was standing on a riverside grassland, which could have been improved immediately (farm).

Worker in Mutal could have been 1T quicker by working mine instead of cottage (production > commerce, especially with EXP).

Could have finished AH on 100% (why 60%?) to avoid losing beakers. Don't know if you want us to point all this out, people react differently. Pedro recently sent me a 5-page-long criticism on my YouTube game. Was kind of disappointing to read to be honest, but I've improved a lot because of that and enjoy the game more. And it's not meant in a harsh/personal way, rather supportive . None of us play perfectly here, I did some not-so-good stuff earlier (building cottages for Mutal so early, I am still "plagued" by that ...). Analysing decisions on a turn-by-turn basis here offers great opportunity to spot and point out such details.