"The destruction of freedom"

[aimeeandbeatles]

Big words everywhere! I'm bowing out for now.

 

[BvBPL]

If rights are inherent, why do some countries have different rights than others.

Err… I should say I was thinking of natural rights when I said rights are innate. Things like the right to live are innate. Legal rights, like the right to representation at a trial, are dictated and ensured by the government. The line between these can blur. For example: if most good governments in the world representing most of the people in the world recognize a right to representation at a trial, should such a right be considered innate by dint of the world’s current ability to provide trial lawyers for everyone in court, or legal because it is set forth in legal documents? In any case, it seems reasonable that some countries may specify certain legal rights to their subjects that other countries do not recognize. Then they are some countries that do not recognize certain innate rights. That doesn’t mean that the subjects of these countries do not have said rights, but rather that their rights are subjected by their governments.

and how do we divine which rights are inherent?

I don't have the resources to fully answer this question right now (I'm at the office). I might get back to it when I get home.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think that the prevailing philosophical view is that our rights are inherent and are not granted by statutory, Constitutional, or other political enterprises, although such enterprises may ensure, deny, or otherwise act upon those rights. While not an expert in Canadian politics, I find it unlikely that the national political understanding of rights is that said rights are granted through a specific document of any sort. Rights may be delineated in such a document, which is literally what you’re saying, but not an answer to amadeus’s question.

Or Aimee is a realist.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

A realist?

 

[Alassius]

I've begun assuming that these people believe "freedom" to be a rare and endangered species of bird in the Amazon rainforest, which such-and-such-legislation will some indirectly threatens with extinction. That way, at least I can pretend that they have some clumsy internal logic, which saves my desk a few forehead-dents.

More likely it's the nostalgia goggles that made them believing freedom wasn't rare and endangered in the past.

 

[Souron]

There's so much hyperbolic rhetoric out there, it's not worth batting an eye over.

Almost any law can be characterized as limiting some freedoms and helping other freedom, that a phrase like "the destruction of freedom" doesn't say much.

 

[Narz]

Anyone who talks about "the destruction of freedom" is an emotional 3-year old who doesn't deserve the oxygen they breathe. The type of human being needed in the future are those willing to put the greater good of the planet above their petty little freedoms to pollute & consume & basically behave like entitled brats.

 

[Souron]

No law can limit freedom. Freedom is free will, ie the ability to do what you want. Laws do not limit free will, instead they apply consequences to the actions you take of your free will.

Many laws ensure freedom. Laws against homicide, for example, help my freedom by establishing penalties for me being murdered. Any party is still free to murder me, however they must later answer to the justice system for my murder.

Laws may restrict rights, liberties, and privileges, one of which is probably more what the author of your letter intends. Would you accept the letter if it said “this law threatens liberty”?

I disagree with this characterization. There are laws and economic policies that are intended as disincentives. Most taxes, expect the income tax, are of this sort. However, criminal law is punitive. They are written with the intent of never being broken. For instance laws against theft are not intended to make the would be robber ever consider that sometimes it is worth stealing stuff. The principle of proportional response, as well as the inability to effectively control risk in crime undermine such efforts, but the idea is there.

Similarly, active prevention, by means such as stationing more police men is possible. Such policies do restrict the freedom to do crime; police men won't wait for you to pull off a murder before arresting you.

 

[Narz]

I too disagree with this characterization. Free will is only as good as your means. If you're living in ultimate poverty all the will & imagination in the world won't help you.

 

[NovaKart]

Lots of crackpots write letters to the local paper. One of my cousins has severe mental problems and she's no longer allowed to contact her local paper (I don't know the specifics). I once saw a letter to my town's local paper back in the US warning people not to leave their animals outside because they may be abducted by satanists for sacrifices.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Lots of crackpots write letters to the local paper. One of my cousins has severe mental problems and she's no longer allowed to contact her local paper (I don't know the specifics). I once saw a letter to my town's local paper back in the US warning people not to leave their animals outside because they may be abducted by satanists for sacrifices.

Someone wrote a letter to the editor seriously saying that childproof caps were a conspiricy to kill old people.

 

[cardgame]

Lots of crackpots write letters to the local paper. One of my cousins has severe mental problems and she's no longer allowed to contact her local paper (I don't know the specifics). I once saw a letter to my town's local paper back in the US warning people not to leave their animals outside because they may be abducted by satanists for sacrifices.

Well, I can almost see the point of that; the author of the letter is probably rather paranoid, but it has happened.

Someone wrote a letter to the editor seriously saying that childproof caps were a conspiricy to kill old people.

 

[NovaKart]

Is there any documented case of that happening?

 

[cardgame]

Probably, but I can't search right now, need to go to bed. I swear I read something about it somewhere or other.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Free will is only as good as your means. If you're living in ultimate poverty all the will & imagination in the world won't help you.

If you are living impowerished your will (free will and willpower) and imagination can help you escape it...

 

[Narz]

If you are living impowerished your will (free will and willpower) and imagination can help you escape it...

Maybe, probably not if your situation is bad enough. I don't think willpower is your problem is your 3-years old with a bloated belly & flies in your eyes.

 

[Berzerker]

No law can limit freedom. Freedom is free will, ie the ability to do what you want. Laws do not limit free will, instead they apply consequences to the actions you take of your free will.

Many laws ensure freedom. Laws against homicide, for example, help my freedom by establishing penalties for me being murdered. Any party is still free to murder me, however they must later answer to the justice system for my murder.

Laws may restrict rights, liberties, and privileges, one of which is probably more what the author of your letter intends. Would you accept the letter if it said “this law threatens liberty”?

Freedom is the absence of coercion or constraint, so no one is "free" to murder and laws may limit freedom if they coerce (or constrain) personal (free) behavior.

 

[Core Imposter]

Anyone who talks about "the destruction of freedom" is an emotional 3-year old who doesn't deserve the oxygen they breathe. The type of human being needed in the future are those willing to put the greater good of the planet above their petty little freedoms to pollute & consume & basically behave like entitled brats.

I refuse to yield my liberty to nazis that seek to destroy my freedom by decree, insisting on unreasonable and petty tyranting; subjecting innocents to humiliation in the smallest things such as even the requirement of wearing a safety harness in their own private means of personal transportation. Give me liberty or death.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I refuse to yield my liberty to nazis that seek to destroy my freedom by decree, insisting on unreasonable and petty tyranting; subjecting innocents to humiliation in the smallest things such as even the requirement of wearing a safety harness in their own private means of personal transportation. Give me liberty or death.

Less than two pages.

Sigh.

 

[Core Imposter]

Have a nice day