The Generational-Linguistic Split

[Narz]

the alternatives would either be a return to traditionalism/religious fundamentalism (cringe), or fascism

That's a bit of an uncreative take?

Humans can come up w new ideas

 

[Lexicus]

What does it mean to be a winner in the communist game?

 

[Narz]

Life isn't secure.

Name a communist regime where people felt secure.

 

[Gorbles]

Who are you favorites?

Didn't say I had one. Just pointing out their existence.

Like, this is compounded by your later replies. You don't know something, but instead you verbalise (well, write) this as a challenge to other posters to prove some bit of knowledge to you. Just go look it up yourself, it's not hard.

 

[Narz]

Didn't say I had one. Just pointing out their existence.

Like, this is compounded by your later replies. You don't know something, but instead you verbalise (well, write) this as a challenge to other posters to prove some bit of knowledge to you. Just go look it up yourself, it's not hard.

So I mention famous captialists you say well there are famous communist actors too but you can't name any. Got it.

 

[Farm Boy]

Ehhhhhh. It's a bit more specific and concrete than that. It's the right wing party vote of each generation, relative to that country's overall vote shares. It's not "how conservative and liberal people are" in any absolute terms, it is all relative to other cohorts and mapping out contrasts within the whole.

It's not even comparative about degree of right wingedness across the given countries, given the gulf between the kinds of cuddly right wing parties the Irish or NZers are voting for compared to the lunatic party the Americans and really the British these days are saddled with.

And it's also just right vote, it says nothing about how left the other votes are going. Which is a really significant question given all bar one of these countries have more than one meaningful non-right party occupying quite different turf. Greens vs Labor, NDP vs Liberal, several parties vs Labour and Labour, those are all pretty important gulfs and it's really only the duopolistic US where you can even pretend there's something like a "liberals and conservatives only" binary for you to rise above like a mighty free thinker (but even there, that binary doesn't really exist it's just that the actual left doesn't really have a party because of reasons).

What it is showing is that people currently in their 20s and 30s aren't gently swinging towards the Liberals, the Conservative and Unionist Party, the Nationals, the other Conservatives, the Republicans. That's unlike their counterparts in many other wealthy democratic countries, and it's also in contrast to what the older generations did in those same countries. It demands some analysis really.

Sorry if that isn't esoteric enough I guess. But it has pretty important potential implications for many elections to come.

Esoteric. Alright, fine. The me filter it is! Though that's going to be limited even there. We've been realigning for a decade or so.

 

[Gorbles]

So I mention famous captialists you say well there are famous communist actors too but you can't name any. Got it.

I'm not your Google.

Of course there are famous capitalists. There are a bunch of countries as-is in the world functioning under capitalism that have for decades. What is your point, exactly, other than to try and put words into peoples' mouths?

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

My guess is there is a political-socio block of internationally communicating people that call themselves left wing by name, thier opponents right-wing by definition, when actually they're actually drifting conservative the way people always do. Terms and definitions crafted to support the conclusion.

I think if that were true some crafty conservatives in any of the English speaking countries would be able to use it to create more youth support and vote turnout, but the opposite is happening. There’s a massive difference in the under 40 vote for GOP in the US vs the under 40 vote for conservatives in, say, Denmark, and the divide is still growing. Something is at play here other than vibes.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Unrelated to my previous post, but while not many people would consider Japan western, the youth there are very right wing while Tokyo is famous for housing affordability among global cities.

 

[GenMarshall]

…while Tokyo is famous for housing affordability among global cities.

When I think of Tokyo, I don’t think of housing in a sense of a single family home in a low density residential area (I’m sure there are areas in Tokyo and any other metropolis that are zoned low density single family residential). Instead I think of the mid-high density multi family zone that are eather multi unit apartments or multi unit condos (I’m presuming in this case, condos since housing you own and you practically own a condo unit).

This does raises questions for me, in good faith and curiosity, of how a single-family house or a condo unit within a condominium complex/tower can be affordable while situated in a high land value area (my take is that the higher the land value the more expensive the house/condo unit would be) with the only two answers in my deck being eather wages are enough to buy a house/unit in a high land value area and/or government subsidies to cover the cost. I’ll admit that I’m oversimplifying it a bit since I’m coming from city builders like SimCity and City Skylines.

 

[Zardnaar]

My parents very conservative/libertarian & I've become more left leaning as I've gotten older (and more critical of the massive self-owning the left tends to do)

I figured out the self owning of the left around 1996 age 18 1999 at the latest after being exposed to the International Socialists.

 

[GenMarshall]

I figured out the self owning of the left around 1996 age 18 1999 at the latest after being exposed to the International Socialists.

I’ve been on the Internet since the mid 90s and I don’t even recall even seeing self owning of the left and other SJW owned materials until sometime around 2016ish (IIRC, sometime after Tumblir became infamous) . I’m guessing what you saw were more centered around the more obscure and niche site.

 

[Zardnaar]

I’ve been on the Internet since the mid 90s and I don’t even recall even seeing self owning of the left and other SJW owned materials until sometime around 2016ish (IIRC, sometime after Tumblir became infamous) . I’m guessing what you saw were more centered around the more obscure and niche site.

Wasn't internet but real life stuff.

Met nutters that these days would probably be the U shaped political theory.

And denial of basic reality.

 

[stfoskey12]

One thing about the US in particular, that I think is underdiscussed in this conversation is social issues. In my experience (and AFAIK polls back this up), young people overwhelmingly support gay marriage, and are more likely to be pro-choice and support trans rights. Young adults have grown up in a post-1960s society where racial diversity is normalized and immigration from non-white countries is commonplace. Young people are also significantly less religious than older people on average. So when Republicans promote Christianity or oppose immigration, it runs counter to the cultural views of a large portion of people under 40.

At least in my experience as a 20-something, I know a fair number of fiscally conservative people my age, but few socially conservative people my age. I do think young people are more to the left economically as well, but the gap is not as big as it is on social issues, IME.

 

[Zardnaar]

One thing about the US in particular, that I think is underdiscussed in this conversation is social issues. In my experience (and AFAIK polls back this up), young people overwhelmingly support gay marriage, and are more likely to be pro-choice and support trans rights. Young adults have grown up in a post-1960s society where racial diversity is normalized and immigration from non-white countries is commonplace. Young people are also significantly less religious than older people on average. So when Republicans promote Christianity or oppose immigration, it runs counter to the cultural views of a large portion of people under 40.

At least in my experience as a 20-something, I know a fair number of fiscally conservative people my age, but few socially conservative people my age. I do think young people are more to the left economically as well, but the gap is not as big as it is on social issues, IME.

Roughly my thoughts as well.

 

[Arwon]

One thing about the US in particular, that I think is underdiscussed in this conversation is social issues. In my experience (and AFAIK polls back this up), young people overwhelmingly support gay marriage, and are more likely to be pro-choice and support trans rights. Young adults have grown up in a post-1960s society where racial diversity is normalized and immigration from non-white countries is commonplace. Young people are also significantly less religious than older people on average. So when Republicans promote Christianity or oppose immigration, it runs counter to the cultural views of a large portion of people under 40.

At least in my experience as a 20-something, I know a fair number of fiscally conservative people my age, but few socially conservative people my age. I do think young people are more to the left economically as well, but the gap is not as big as it is on social issues, IME.

This isn't necessarily a relevant cleavage between the rest of the rich Anglo countries and Western Europe, however. You usually don't see the mainstream right parties of most of those countries do the sort of GOP style loopy Christian culture stuff either in form or content. Some leaders might say some things, but even an openly and brazenly Pentecostal prime minister recently in Australia didn't try to legislate anything in these areas, the biggest thing they went into bad for was continuing to fund a fairly benign if pointless school chaplaincy program, and try without success to allow religious schools to discriminate against gay staff, hardly big picture things. It's not really in any of the other relevant countries' mainstream right wing legislative programs.

Abortion in particular is simply not an issue elsewhere, gay marriage is largely uncontroversial now that it's happened, and the really vicious and borderline genocidal anti trans movement is mostly English and American only.

So that retrograde social stuff probably can't really explain divergence between, say, New Zealand or English vs German or Danish millennial voting patterns regarding right wing parties, because most of the right parties in question are pretty mild on that front.

 

[Zardnaar]

This isn't necessarily a relevant cleavage between the rest of the rich Anglo countries and Western Europe, however. You usually don't see the mainstream right parties of most of those countries do the sort of GOP style loopy Christian culture stuff either in form or content. Some leaders might say some things, but even an openly and brazenly Pentecostal prime minister recently in Australia didn't try to legislate anything in these areas, the biggest thing they went into bad for was continuing to fund a fairly benign if pointless school chaplaincy program, and try without success to allow religious schools to discriminate against gay staff, hardly big picture things. It's not really in any of the other relevant countries' mainstream right wing legislative programs.

Abortion in particular is simply not an issue elsewhere, gay marriage is largely uncontroversial now that it's happened, and the really vicious and borderline genocidal anti trans movement is mostly English and American only.

So that retrograde social stuff probably can't really explain divergence between, say, New Zealand or English vs German or Danish millennial voting patterns regarding right wing parties, because most of the right parties in question are pretty mild on that front.

Here it's economical not social. By US standards our right wing is socially liberal fiscally conservative. Gay marriage was passed by right wing prime minister.

The you have been priced out of property and cost of living.

One side is useless at dealing with it the other side actively making it worse

 

[Joij21]

Life isn't secure.

Name a communist regime where people felt secure.

That's a bit of an uncreative take?

Humans can come up w new ideas

Look it doesn't really matter if communism actually works, what matters at the end of the day is whether it's seductive enough for the masses to buy into it during a period when the current paradigm is showing massive cracks that have intentionally been ignored by incompetently corrupt (not saying they ever were not before, just that they're completely inept in how they go about it now. Hence "incompetently"! ) leadership for decades now.

 

[stfoskey12]

Here it's economical not social. By US standards our right wing is socially liberal fiscally conservative. Gay marriage was passed by right wing prime minister.

The you have been priced out of property and cost of living.

One side is useless at dealing with it the other side actively making it worse

Yeah the main economic things I see left-leaning young people complain about here are the costs of healthcare, housing, and education. As well as poor working conditions in retail jobs. It is weird though that the Republican states tend to be gaining population faster than the Democratic states due to being more affordable. But that can then turn places like Georgia and North Carolina into more of swing states.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah the main economic things I see left-leaning young people complain about here are the costs of healthcare, housing, and education. As well as poor working conditions in retail jobs. It is weird though that the Republican states tend to be gaining population faster than the Democratic states due to being more affordable. But that can then turn places like Georgia and North Carolina into more of swing states.

Basically I get yelled at if I point out fix the economic stuff first the social stuff will then follow. Other way around you're just increasing extremism until something breaks.

Here the economic sytuff was done first by people who would fail modern purity tests but because things were comparatively good the social stuff followed.

Now it's getting harder and small scale Americanisms are sneaking in.