The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention

[Traitorfish]

So the country > the individual now?

That's one of the key tenets of fascism, no?

The key tenet of fascism. Everything else is just organisation.

 

[The Yankee]

source
I don't care what he did, but at the very least he deserves a trial. If the US is willing to give suspected terrorists a trial, then why shouldn't one of its soldiers get one.

So...the US should wait seven or eight years to give him a trial like they have for the couple of terrorists put on trial?

Okay.

 

[Dachs]

The key tenet of fascism. Everything else is just organisation.

those dirty fascist French revolutionaries

 

[Traitorfish]

those dirty fascist French revolutionaries

The French Revolution had certain proto-Fascist strains to it, yes.

 

[Dachs]

it's too hilariously broad

fascist classical Athens? fascist Rome?

 

[Mr. Dictator]

fascist Rome?

well they did bring us the fasces

 

[civver_764]

Well no, that's actually one of the key tenets of "Kennedyism". Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.

I'm not some huge fan of Kennedy or anything, but I'm pretty sure he was talking about the people who make up the country, not the government.

In that case Manning is doing a splendid job.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Is anybody really surprised that Manning is being deliberately harassed, abused, and possibly even tortured by the US military after many reactionaries even advocated Assange's assassination?

I seriously doubt the Walker brothers were victimized to this extent, even though their actual espionage allowed the Soviets to know exactly what the US Navy was going to do ahead of time for nearly 20 years.

The US military seems to have completely lost their moral compass ever since 9/11, when they were allowed to treat anybody even remotely suspected of being a "terrorist" as someone who was subhuman who has no rights whatsoever. I think it is time they not only take an oath to defend the Constitution, but to actually start following it.

 

[Ajidica]

So...the US should wait seven or eight years to give him a trial like they have for the couple of terrorists put on trial?

Okay.

Still, he is innocent until proven guilty. Until then he should be treated as a normal prisoner with no special treatment. Remember, according to the law he hasn't done anything illegal until a court finds that he did, unless of course military courts work differently.
Even if he is guilty, the constitution banning of 'cruel or unusual' punishment still is in effect. I would consider almost complete solitary confinement and strict regulations in solitary while under constant surveilance to fall under 'cruel and unusual'.

The French Revolution had certain proto-Fascist strains to it, yes.

Robespierre embodies it quite well.
"Terror is merely justice, prompt and inflexible"
"To give mercy to the oppressors of humanity is treason"

 

[The Yankee]

Still, he is innocent until proven guilty. Until then he should be treated as a normal prisoner with no special treatment. Remember, according to the law he hasn't done anything illegal until a court finds that he did, unless of course military courts work differently.
Even if he is guilty, the constitution banning of 'cruel or unusual' punishment still is in effect. I would consider almost complete solitary confinement and strict regulations in solitary while under constant surveilance to fall under 'cruel and unusual'.

That sounds about on par with some of our civilian criminals. Sometimes, they even ask for solitary.


But as far as a trial...five months so far is probably comparable to plenty of other cases.

A question for those that know the UCMJ (which I presume would apply here), would there be a judge or tribunal of some sort that would sign off on confinement until such a trial? Much like how judges revoke bail for various reasons.

 

[Ajidica]

That sounds about on par with some of our civilian criminals. Sometimes, they even ask for solitary.

Almost constant solitary with people regulating your activities through camera's and no access to any news is on par with non-violent civilian criminals?
In Criminology we had a person come in who had been convicted of a 1st degree assault to talk to us about the CJS and I think if the prison time before trial was that bad, he would have mentioned it. Not to mention the ACLU being all over the prison if people charged with non-violent crimes were treated like that.

 

[Traitorfish]

it's too hilariously broad

fascist classical Athens? fascist Rome?

Given that they lacked the modern understanding of the nation-state, the label becomes inapplicable.

Fascism is essentially defined as a political ideology which asserts the primacy of the nation-state in all things and pursues a revolutionary populism to that end. If it is possible to recognise strains of that in the French Revolution, then such strains can be feasibly described as "proto-Fascist".

 

[JollyRoger]

That sounds about on par with some of our civilian criminals. Sometimes, they even ask for solitary.


But as far as a trial...five months so far is probably comparable to plenty of other cases.

A question for those that know the UCMJ (which I presume would apply here), would there be a judge or tribunal of some sort that would sign off on confinement until such a trial? Much like how judges revoke bail for various reasons.

There is no bail, though it is possible to not be confined while awaiting to be tried.

Also:

813. ART. 13 PUNISHMENT PROHIBITED BEFORE TRIAL
No person, while being held for trial, may be subjected to punishment or penalty other than arrest or confinement upon the charges pending against him, nor shall the arrest or confinement imposed upon him be any more rigorous than the circumstances required to insure his presence, but he may be subjected to minor punishment during that period for infractions of discipline.

810. ART. 10. RESTRAINT OF PERSONS CHARGED WITH OFFENSES
Any person subject to this chapter charged with an offense under this chapter shall be ordered into arrest or confinement, as circumstances may require; but when charged only with an offense normally tried by a summary court-martial, he shall not ordinarily be placed in confinement. When any person subject to this chapter is placed in arrest or confinement prior to trial, immediate steps shall be taken to inform him of the specific wrong of which he is accused and to try him or to dismiss the charges and release him.

 

[dosed150]

really what weve come to expect from america these days, as for him apparantly betraying his country, really, by leaking low level documents,
I mean george washington led an armed inssurection against the state he swore an oath to, the fact is betraying your state is sometimes right, americans should understand this more than the rest of us

 

[ParkCungHee]

Given that they lacked the modern understanding of the nation-state, the label becomes inapplicable.

Fascism is essentially defined as a political ideology which asserts the primacy of the nation-state in all things and pursues a revolutionary populism to that end. If it is possible to recognise strains of that in the French Revolution, then such strains can be feasibly described as "proto-Fascist".

The fascists certainly described it as such.

 

[Masada]

I might be more sympathetic to his plight had he just released the video, which was in the public interest and would have, to me, at least, constituted an entirely valid, indeed laudable Medal of Freedom worthy, act of whistle-blowing. He didn't, instead he handed over diplomatic communiqués and other sensitive documents, which were not in the legitimate public interest - except in that almost petulant 'we should know everything' attitude that some here have been pushing - an act which contravened the law. I just can't marshal any sympathy for him, to be honest.

 

[Ajidica]

I might be more sympathetic to his plight had he just released the video, which was in the public interest and would have, to me, at least, constituted an entirely valid, indeed laudable Medal of Freedom worthy, act of whistle-blowing. He didn't, instead he handed over diplomatic communiqués and other sensitive documents, which were not in the legitimate public interest - except in that almost petulant 'we should know everything' attitude that some here have been pushing - an act which contravened the law. I just can't marshal any sympathy for him, to be honest.

Just because you can't marshal any sympathy for him is not grounds for his rights to be ignored when he hasn't even been found guilty yet.

 

[The Yankee]

Also:

"Immediate" seems to have a loophole wide enough to drive the Queen Elizabeth II through it.

Same for the confinement rule you noted first, although it may be easier to argue the solitary part is above and beyond what is needed to keep him in place.

 

[fugazi]

Anyone who applauds the way he's being handled seriously needs to see a therapist clearly you're wrestling with personal issues since you can condone and support such inhuman behavior.

 

[Traitorfish]

The fascists certainly described it as such.

And who are we to argue?