The Limits of Free Speech

[Lexicus]

Regarding swearing... I would not want to see the "f-word" in commercial novels, nor do I think it would be allowed.

In Canada, you mean? That's interesting. I was reading novels that had lots of swear words including the f-word, graphic depictions of sex and violence (also sexual violence), etc, starting when I was about 13-14. We read books in school as early as ages 10 and 11 that contained racial slurs (n-word). Of course, I had been cursing for years by then because my best friend growing up had older brothers so he knew all the bad words.

The reason they gave for including this language was that they wanted to have their characters speak like some people speak normally. I should mention that it was always in-character (some were given to swearing; others weren't), and not gratuitous, just for the sake of including swearing.

Well, certainly depicting naval personnel swearing is highly realistic. In fact, I consider it likely that no matter how much gratuitous swearing is placed in these stories, it probably still falls short of the amount of swearing that happens in real navies.

 

[Light Cleric]

That would make the Starfleet very different from every other fleet I know of!

Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior Lieutenant Data? (language warning etc)

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yeah, the phrase curse like a sailor is a thing for a reason lol

Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior Lieutenant Data? (language warning etc)

 

[BvBPL]

My view of it is this: Recent commercial Star Trek productions have featured characters who don't behave professionally (case in point: nuUhura constantly whining to nuSpock about their relationship - while on duty - and nuKirk leering at female crew (the infamous underwear scene in the second nuTrek movie).

The professional standards for behavior in Starfleet are demonstrably lax. There’s very little effective discipline in that organization. Look at this outrageous behavior:

• The ship’s surgeon is constantly smuggling contraband ale.
• The administrator of an intergovernmental space station is allowing himself to be worshipped as a messiah.
• The chief helmsman has been spotted fencing shirtless with a mad gleam in his eyes.
• The android is having sex with the chief of security.
• The captain takes over a planet-wide criminal organization.
• Thrown into the Delta Quadrant, the captain applies the Prime Directive with astonishing inconsistency.
• They let a fourteen-year-old boy helm the ship. On multiple occasions.
• The chief communications officer is forced to give an erotic fan dance.
• The captain restores the commission of Marquis terrorists.
• The crew of a space station travels back in time with the intent to fawn over past heroes.
• The crew of a starship travels back in time and causes the Allies to lose the Second World War.
• There’s a lot of time travel that should have been avoided, generally.
• Despite the ship’s security officer consistently requesting that his coworkers butt the heck out of his personal life, they nonetheless arrange a fake coming-of-age ceremony for the officer wherein he is subjected to a bizarre masochistic gauntlet.
• Prison break from Klingon internment planet.
• Fraternization with a member of the Obsidian Order.

Disciplinary actions resulting from such breaches of professionalism are also lax as where an admiral who steals a starship retains his commission.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Star Fleet's rules exist pretty much exclusively for our plucky heroes to ignore them.

 

[warpus]

They exist to whatever degree the current plot requires them to exist.

Will we ever see goddamn swearing on this website though?

 

[BvBPL]

Some would say we just did.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Really annoying bullet list

How does one get rid of the bullets in order to reply to this list in an orderly way?

I'm trying and failing to recall that McCoy "constantly" smuggled Romulan Ale.

It's been well over a decade since I last saw DS9; I'd have to rewatch the first episode to see why Sisko decided to become the Emissary. Keep in mind that this series starts out in a war zone and that the ultimate goal is to keep the peace and for Bajor to eventually be admitted to the Federation. Thumbing his nose at the local religion isn't a good diplomatic move for a station commander to make.

Sulu was under the influence of a virus, which rendered him temporarily incapable of exercising proper judgment.

Data and Tasha Yar were under the influence of a virus similar to the one that afflicted Sulu.

Kirk derived no personal gain from taking over from the Iotian Bosses. It was made clear that the Federation's cut would be put back into a fund to be used for the benefit of the planet, to guide it into a more ethical form of government.

Janeway is a lot more like Kirk than she would be willing to admit. Both of them were kicked upstairs behind an Admiral's desk, partly so they would have less opportunity to play fast and loose with the Prime Directive.

Wesley was 15, not 14. If Starfleet objected to Picard's promoting Wesley to "acting Ensign" they should have said so.

I will have to review STV to see if Kirk ordered Uhura to do that, or if it was her idea.

Janeway did not "restore the commissions" of any Maquis members. She had the authority to make temporary field promotions, but they weren't official until Starfleet Command said so.

"Trials and Tribble-ations" was not about "fawning" over past heroes in an in-universe context. Yes, Jadzia was giddy about Spock and McCoy and Sisko decided he just had to meet Kirk. However the latter scene wasn't actually from "The Trouble With Tribbles." It was from "Mirror, Mirror" and Sisko was just inserted into the scene in place of Marlena Moreau. So yeah, Sisko acted unprofessionally there; the mission had been accomplished by that point and he had no reason to go to the Bridge and contaminate the time line.

McCoy was suffering from an accidental overdose of cordrazine. He did not intentionally cause the Allies to lose WWII.

Yes, there was a lot of time travel. Take it up with the writers of that time. Some of the TOS writers are still alive (at least I haven't heard that Dorothy Fontana has died; when she does, I suspect TrekBBS will go into mourning).

Worf was a humorless jerk, and he did finally understand that his colleagues just wanted to do something nice for him. Klingons like pain, after all.

Kirk and McCoy were framed and time was of the essence to prevent a war, so breaking out of the prison was the logical thing to do.

You mean Garak and Bashir? Bashir didn't know at first what Garak was. Put the majority of the blame on Garak; he was basically seducing Bashir from the get-go (there's some pretty steamy slashfic written about those two...).

Kirk was demoted.

Will we ever see goddamn swearing on this website though?

Fuddle-duddle!

 

[warpus]

Goddamn is not a swear word. Maybe if you're an 8 year old altar boy

 

[BvBPL]

Please, please, please, do not watch Star Trek V on my account. This goes for all of CFC. I wouldn’t want that on my conscious.

In any case, these actions were not necessarily ill-reasoned, unnecessary, or bad. But they were below the standards of professionalism one might expect from elite military officers. Contrasted, say, with Babylon 5.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

In Canada, you mean? That's interesting. I was reading novels that had lots of swear words including the f-word, graphic depictions of sex and violence (also sexual violence), etc, starting when I was about 13-14. We read books in school as early as ages 10 and 11 that contained racial slurs (n-word). Of course, I had been cursing for years by then because my best friend growing up had older brothers so he knew all the bad words.

I'm talking about commercial Star Trek books.

Please understand that my grandfather read most of my books, and there were a few occasions when he strongly disapproved of them and deemed them unfit for me to read. One of those times I barely managed to prevent him from throwing the book in the garbage - it was a library book, and I told him that if he threw it out, I would have to pay for a replacement (it was a science fiction paperback by Philip Jose Farmer). Another time, the book had been a gift from the neighbors, as a "thank you" to me for taking care of their dog while they were away. My grandfather read it, declared it was the "filthiest" book he'd ever read, and threw it in the garbage before I'd even so much as read the title page.

After that I put my foot down and told him that I would be deciding for myself what books were fit for me to read, and would no longer allow him to read my library books. I made sure to hide certain books so even if he did go into my room to get something to read, it wouldn't be the stuff he would object to.


If the swearing is part of the specific character's traits and isn't a generally gratuitous thing, it's not something that I'd automatically decide against reading.

I grew up in a household where kids were not allowed to swear. I remember the first time I ever said "hell" in my grandmother's presence. She gasped, and started to laugh. I was mortified, since I'd meant to say "heck" and "hell" just slipped out. I was in high school at the time.

Well, certainly depicting naval personnel swearing is highly realistic. In fact, I consider it likely that no matter how much gratuitous swearing is placed in these stories, it probably still falls short of the amount of swearing that happens in real navies.

It's not something that was part of TV-Star Trek, though. There are still people who debate whether or not it was appropriate for Kirk to say "Let's get the hell out of here" at the end of "City on the Edge of Forever."

I give him a pass on that. After all, he had just been forced to allow the woman he loved to be run over by a truck and killed, for the sake of saving Earth and the Federation.

Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior Lieutenant Data? (language warning etc)

I never did like Data on the TV series, and was even less a fan of his in the movies. His movie swearing was done for cheap laughs.

Please, please, please, do not watch Star Trek V on my account. This goes for all of CFC. I wouldn’t want that on my conscious.

In any case, these actions were not necessarily ill-reasoned, unnecessary, or bad. But they were below the standards of professionalism one might expect from elite military officers. Contrasted, say, with Babylon 5.

Babylon 5. Hmm. It's been over 20 years since I saw that show, but I seem to recall both Garibaldi and Franklin getting in some major trouble. Drug addiction, right? And while Lennier wasn't strictly an officer under Sheridan's command, he still committed treason.

Anyway, my favorite character on that show was Marcus. And when he gave his life to save Ivanova, all she did was wail about how she should have had sex with him.

Yep, that's far more professional than Starfleet.

 

[Birdjaguar]

That would make the Starfleet very different from every other fleet I know of!

Fake Navies in a fictional world have no rules except those imposed by those who pay the bills. In my opinion, every Star Trek would have been improved by more swearing, more sex and more blood and gore. But I wasn't paying the bills.

 

[warpus]

"Hell" isn't swearing either, unless you're from the 1700s or something maybe. Kirk is from the 2200s so he can say "hell"

 

[Ryika]

Star Trek with swearing? So Star... Dreck? Wuahaha... haa... ha. Well, that was not funny at all.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Fake Navies in a fictional world have no rules except those imposed by those who pay the bills. In my opinion, every Star Trek would have been improved by more swearing, more sex and more blood and gore. But I wasn't paying the bills.

You do realize that we're talking about a show that premiered 51 years ago, right? As in the era when married couples on TV were expected to be shown as sleeping in twin beds, rather than together?

I guess Discovery is right up your alley, then. Or maybe you might enjoy the novel in which some of the crew were transformed into alien creatures and cannibalized some of their fellow crewmen in those forms. Poor Chekov will have to live with the knowledge that he ate one of his colleagues (I don't recall if this novel came out in the '80s or '90s).

 

[BvBPL]

In Federation Russia, crew members eat you!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm not seeing how this qualifies as "fighting words" :/.