The Panama Papers: Hackers Reveal Law Firm's Many Tax Haven Clients

[Takhisis]

Hmmm, another piece of news is that this Mossack Fonseca company helped launder the profits from the 1983 ‘robbery of the century’; there's also some proof as to their helping the Islamic Republic of Iran evade international sanctions.

Edit: unintentionally, that partially answers your question, as a small example. These organisations do what is said of Michael Corleone in The Godfather, Part 3: Criminals give them money, and these people clean the money and then make the money yield profits.

 

[Commodore]

Edit: unintentionally, that partially answers your question, as a small example. These organisations do what is said of Michael Corleone in The Godfather, Part 3: Criminals give them money, and these people clean the money and then make the money yield profits.

But again, this is stuff that everybody already knows is happening. So why does this particular leak warrant any more outrage than there already is over corruption?

Is it just because it actually confirms our suspicions over what has been going on?

EDIT: And exactly what are we supposed to do with this knowledge? Rise up in revolt? Elect new leaders? This whole thing just strikes me as a bunch of information that was dumped on the people just to get them riled up with nothing we can actually do about it.

 

[Takhisis]

It's because this is proof, finally, of what's been going on. It's about the poublic accountability of officials. In many cases, the mere hiding of these assets is a crime.

Corruption kills. Every single dollar, rouble, euro, peso, pound, lira, rial, yuan, etc. that shows up here is money that comes from taxpayers' money, public works not realised, public health plans not carried out, people left without drinking water, crops not irrigated, roads not built and so on. It's also money coming from drugs, from slave trade, arms dealers, protection rackets, etc. How many ‘revolutions’, guerrillas and so on have been financed through these schemes?

 

[Commodore]

It's because this is proof, finally, of what's been going on. It's about the poublic accountability of officials. In many cases, the mere hiding of these assets is a crime.

Corruption kills. Every single dollar, rouble, euro, peso, pound, lira, rial, yuan, etc. that shows up here is money that comes from taxpayers' money, public works not realised, public health plans not carried out, people left without drinking water, crops not irrigated, roads not built and so on. It's also money coming from drugs, from slave trade, arms dealers, protection rackets, etc. How many ‘revolutions’, guerrillas and so on have been financed through these schemes?

But what are we supposed to do about it? We get rid of the corrupt officials and new ones will take their place. We pass new anti-corruption laws and they will find ways around them. We arrest the crime lords implicated in this and new ones take their place and find new ways to hide their activities from the public.

Look, if there's one thing I learned in the intelligence community, it's that information is only valuable if it's actionable. So what exactly is actionable in this information? What does this information allow us to do besides piss and moan about our corrupt leaders on an internet forum?

I am also a firm believer in the idea that there's no sense getting angry and worked up over things you have absolutely zero power to control. This is one of those situations.

 

[Birdjaguar]

^^^ Time will tell who gets angry and what actions get taken.

 

[Farm Boy]

But what are we supposed to do about it? We get rid of the corrupt officials and new ones will take their place. We pass new anti-corruption laws and they will find ways around them. We arrest the crime lords implicated in this and new ones take their place and find new ways to hide their activities from the public.

Look, if there's one thing I learned in the intelligence community, it's that information is only valuable if it's actionable. So what exactly is actionable in this information? What does this information allow us to do besides piss and moan about our corrupt leaders on an internet forum?

I am also a firm believer in the idea that there's no sense getting angry and worked up over things you have absolutely zero power to control. This is one of those situations.

The final triumph over evil is the realm of religion. Mere men must make due with victories more ephemeral and limited. We should be pleased they are gained nonetheless.

 

[Takhisis]

They can be criminally prosecuted. Impeached. Investigated. Voted out of office in the next election. There's a lot of things you can do.
The Icelanders have gotten angry. Right now their PM is in for it, as apparently the accounts weren't merely undisclosed ones, but also ones involved in the banking scandals and bailouts of the past decade.
Doesn't the electorate, to whom these rulers owe their office and to whom they are accountable to, deserve to know?

If our own elected officials are going to be criminals, we might as well abolish democracy altogether and hand over the entire American continent, from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego, to the Sinaloa Cartel.

Also, another jewel: the North Korean regime is one of the parties implicated. They use the scheme for arms sales and purchases.

 

[Berzerker]

poor man's crime - taking stuff that belongs to others
rich man's crime - not handing his stuff over

 

[Commodore]

They can be criminally prosecuted. Impeached. Investigated. Voted out of office in the next election. There's a lot of things you can do.

Are you not reading what I'm saying? We have done all those things before with criminal politicians and guess what? Nothing's changed. The simple fact of the matter is that we, the common people, are absolutely powerless to stop the corruption of the elite. We vote them out, new ones come in and get bought out by the crime lords. Nothing changes. We arrest the crime lords and new ones rise up to replace them. Nothing changes. Shut down the institutions that help launder money, and new ones come up to offer their services. Nothing changes.

We'll use your Iceland example. Okay, they are demanding the resignation of their PM and new elections. Let's say they get it. And let's say the guy the elect is a truly honest guy and does everything on the up and up. Doesn't matter. Because while the new guy might be good, what about the next one? Or the one after that? Or after that? The point being that corruption will find its way back into the system no matter how airtight you think you've made the laws.

Believe me when I say I'm really not trying to insult you with what I'm about to say, but you are being terribly naive about the impact this is going to have. This leak will be a minor disruption in the global corruption business and things will go back to normal for the elite in the blink of an eye. Even if some politicians manage to get brought to trial and are convicted, do you really think they are going to a regular prison like you and I would? Hell no. They'll go to some minimum security resort that's more like a private villa than a correctional facility where they'll have all the perks they had before going to "prison".

 

[Agent327]

Tax evasion, strictly speaking, isn't illegal. So there's nothing to prosecute. Tax evasion makes use of legal loopholes. To stop it, legal loopholes need to be plugged.

 

[Arwon]

I'd imagine to the people of Iceland, turfing their Prime Minister in a massive showing of popular outrage would be a fairly significant event. Things like that tend to be.

 

[Commodore]

I'd imagine to the people of Iceland, turfing their Prime Minister in a massive showing of popular outrage would be a fairly significant event. Things like that tend to be.

But will it change anything? Safe bet's on no.

 

[Arwon]

It'll change the government of Iceland, and in fact potentially bring the Pirate Party into power. That would be a fairly significant breakthrough.

There's also a chance some key governments are also shamed into some sort of action - the UK government doing something about the BVI for instance.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Well, it is Iceland. Not France or the UK or something.

 

[Arwon]

I wouldn't be surprised if the unrolling scandal over the coming months has quite a strong influence on the Australian elections, too, since the prime minister is a rich businessman known to have accounts in the Caymans, and is currently trying to make union corruption an issue while tax reform is already a significant one. The focus this brings on business corruption is erm, not welcome to the Liberals.

 

[Arwon]

But also the issue brought into focus here isn't even corruption so much as transparency and tax havens. The point here is all these doings are currently legal.

Those are things that can be addressed by national governments, and those sorts of reforms should become more popular and urgent now.

 

[Borachio]

Oh yeah, I heard about this Panama business.

I think it's quite sad, though unsurprising. Tax Havens are nothing new. And money laundering is principally what the City of London is all about, I always thought.

Still, I think all these rich people deserve to keep their money. After all, there has to be some compensation for being them. They don't have a lot else going for them.

Or maybe I'm being unfair. Rich people are just like everybody else really: they just have more money.

 

[Commodore]

It'll change the government of Iceland, and in fact potentially bring the Pirate Party into power. That would be a fairly significant breakthrough.

There's also a chance some key governments are also shamed into some sort of action - the UK government doing something about the BVI for instance.

You guys are missing my point. Bringing in new politicians and shaming governments into taking token action isn't change. Stuff like this has come out before and it didn't really change anything, so what makes you all so sure it will this time?

Even if this Pirate Party comes to power, they'll eventually become as corrupt as those they replaced. That's why you simply cannot change things, at least not in any meaningful way. Once you give someone any measure of power, you have set them on the inevitable road to corruption. The only way to change it is to get rid of government. But since government is kind of essential to a civilized society, that's not really an option now is it?

But hey, what do I know? I'm just some dude on the internet. Go ahead and vote guys, I'm sure you'll actually change the world one of these days...

 

[Hygro]

Take a shower to get clean. You get dirty again. Doesn't mean you shouldn't take showers.

 

[Arwon]

You guys are missing my point. Bringing in new politicians and shaming governments into taking token action isn't change. Stuff like this has come out before and it didn't really change anything, so what makes you all so sure it will this time?

Even if this Pirate Party comes to power, they'll eventually become as corrupt as those they replaced. That's why you simply cannot change things, at least not in any meaningful way. Once you give someone any measure of power, you have set them on the inevitable road to corruption. The only way to change it is to get rid of government. But since government is kind of essential to a civilized society, that's not really an option now is it?

But hey, what do I know? I'm just some dude on the internet. Go ahead and vote guys, I'm sure you'll actually change the world one of these days...

The logical conclusion of this argument is probably to immediately kill yourself.