The Screwed Generation

[ls612]

I feel like the financial crisis really hurt people graduating from say 2008 to 2011, but in my cohort (most of whom graduated this year) there’s no shortage of opportunities for good Fortune 500 jobs, professional, or graduate school. Heck, I’ve been back in school for year and I still have recruiters contacting me to try and get me to interview for a software engineering position. Some of that might be geographic, since I live in a city with less than 2.5 percent unemployment, but I feel like saying millennials as a whole are screwed is inaccurate.

 

[luiz]

Or maybe they don't. Do you really think there are that many people studying art history? Would society really benefit from a lack of docents, restorers, and curators?

Not everybody has the aptitude to study electrical engineering. Chances are pretty good that if one does have the aptitude, they are studying it already or something similar. After all, an 18 year old doesn't have a whole lot to go on when picking a course of study. Interest and aptitude are going to make up the lion's share of the deciding factors. How many STEM majors do you know who would also do well in the humanities, and vice versa?

The world would be a better place a million times over if people were more able and more encouraged to work towards things which make them happy, and less towards things which make them money.

I feel like the more recent generations in the West are exclusively encouraged to study what they love. It's even a stereotype. While say Indians, Chinese and Koreans are encouraged to pursue a career that will bring a bright financial prospect. I agree with Warpus, some balance is needed. In most countries there are far more people graduating in humanities than the economy can support (I.e., there is far more supply than demand), which is why so many of them end up working outside of their field of expertise or doing crap jobs for the gig economy.

BTW, I mentioned electrical engineering, but it doesn't have to be anything as complex. Germany is a functioning economy with virtually no unemployment thanks to their trade school system. There is no push for everyone to go to college, so a lot of people become specialized mechanics, electricians, plumbers and whatnot, and live comfortably with those jobs.

In most countries there is a huge mismatch between what people are studying and what there is demand for. I can speak of France because I live there. It's a country with two digits unemployment that still depends almost exclusively on immigrants for a range of vital roles such as nurses or plumbers. And then there is a huge (huge!) number of highly educated people unemployed or doing part time precarious jobs, because there is not enough demand for their fields (there are a lot of art historians, philosophers, linguists and the liked in France). Clearly the country would profit from being a bit more like Germany.

 

[Tahuti]

I feel like the more recent generations in the West are exclusively encouraged to study what they love. It's even a stereotype. While say Indians, Chinese and Koreans are encouraged to pursue a career that will bring a bright financial prospect. I agree with Warpus, some balance is needed. In most countries there are far more people graduating in humanities than the economy can support (I.e., there is far more supply than demand), which is why so many of them end up working outside of their field of expertise or doing crap jobs for the gig economy.

BTW, I mentioned electrical engineering, but it doesn't have to be anything as complex. Germany is a functioning economy with virtually no unemployment thanks to their trade school system. There is no push for everyone to go to college, so a lot of people become specialized mechanics, electricians, plumbers and whatnot, and live comfortably with those jobs.

In most countries there is a huge mismatch between what people are studying and what there is demand for. I can speak of France because I live there. It's a country with two digits unemployment that still depends almost exclusively on immigrants for a range of vital roles such as nurses or plumbers. And then there is a huge (huge!) number of highly educated people unemployed or doing part time precarious jobs, because there is not enough demand for their fields (there are a lot of art historians, philosophers, linguists and the liked in France). Clearly the country would profit from being a bit more like Germany.

The major shouldn't really matter that much. I've switched to philosophy because I know that if I cannot make it at the academic top in that field, I will still have hands-on computer programming experience that will make me employable, should I need to be employed. (I don't really want it: I want to do my own stuff like writing and create games as long as I can support myself without these endeavours generating me income)

There is a major problem that degrees are overrelied upon by employers as a method gauge skills, which is a major problem in Germany and the Low Countries.

And finally, one doesn't study to be employed, unless it is absolutely necessary for your chosen field: You can be autodidactic chemist, philosopher or computer programmer, though autodidacticism isn't an option to practice law or medicine. Most students study for learning and life experiences.

 

[dutchfire]

The apocalyptical picture sketched here doesn't really describe what I see on the ground here (Netherlands).
People I know who graduated college between 2010 and today are essentially fully employed and most found a good job within half a year of graduating. Pay ranges between very decent and excellent (those who went into banking. But they have to work extremely hard.) Pay can be a bit slow in the first few years since many companies use secondment agencies.
Probably a bit of bias here since I know mostly but not exclusively STEM graduates.

The housing market is overheating again, after a low period following the 2008 crisis, but it is still possible to buy houses a bit further away from the big cities.

Looking at the larger family and acquaintances, I have the impression that most people who had a meaningful education now have a reasonable job. One group that is actually having trouble are people who are now 50-65 (Baby Boomers?!) and who lose their job. They haven't been on the job market for decades, are often not very highly qualified because they started working straight out of high school and companies are reluctant to hire them since they're old and might be prone to get sick/have outdated technology skills.

Another group in my social circle that has trouble finding good jobs are the partners of expats, but that's of course a rather special situation.

There are more or less acute shortages of high school teachers, train drivers, soldiers, police agents, nurses and installers of electrical equipment.

 

[innonimatu]

BTW, I mentioned electrical engineering, but it doesn't have to be anything as complex. Germany is a functioning economy with virtually no unemployment thanks to their trade school system. There is no push for everyone to go to college, so a lot of people become specialized mechanics, electricians, plumbers and whatnot, and live comfortably with those jobs.

In most countries there is a huge mismatch between what people are studying and what there is demand for. I can speak of France because I live there. It's a country with two digits unemployment that still depends almost exclusively on immigrants for a range of vital roles such as nurses or plumbers. And then there is a huge (huge!) number of highly educated people unemployed or doing part time precarious jobs, because there is not enough demand for their fields (there are a lot of art historians, philosophers, linguists and the liked in France). Clearly the country would profit from being a bit more like Germany.

No. Germany is a country with low unemployment because it has been carrying out an export-oriented strategy for decades. France hasn't.

The plumbing in french houses is still getting done as well as in Germany, they do not have a lack of plumbers.

 

[uppi]

How many STEM majors do you know who would also do well in the humanities, and vice versa?

Some. Since we're sharing personal stories here: My high school Latin teacher said that the world lost a humanities scholar in me, when I declared my intention to go for the scientific subjects. In retrospect, he was probably right, but I still think it was the right decision to study physics. And I believe, you need to have at least some talent in the humanities to be very successful in STEM fields. It is rarely the case that someone is good at exactly one thing, and I think that many people have the chance to be successful in a quite broad array of fields. A lot of that potential is wasted because of bad teachers, others discouraging them, no interest on their side, or just much more talent for something else.

Having said that, there is some truth in the statement that STEM isn't for everyone and the demand for STEM graduates isn't infinite either. So, attracting more people to STEM fields might improve the situation a bit, but it won't be a real solution. And from hobbs' story, I gather that even STEM graduates have trouble making enough money to support a family in the US. At least in Germany that doesn't seem to be the problem, because we are not burdened with student loans, but there is still a large and growing sector of people being underpaid for their work.

 

[luiz]

No. Germany is a country with low unemployment because it has been carrying out an export-oriented strategy for decades. France hasn't.

The plumbing in french houses is still getting done as well as in Germany, they do not have a lack of plumbers.

Yeah, but it's being done by Arabs and poles and Romanians, while France has two digits unemployment and far more sub-employement. Clearly there is something wrong with that picture.

More French people should become plumbers (and nurses and electricians and mechanics and etc), and less should become art historians / deliveroo couriers.

It's a cultural issue. In France it's perceived as higher status to be an unemployed philosopher or linguist or whatever, living off one's parents, than to be plumber or mechanic earning a good living. In Germany it's not the case. People are proud there to work as mechanics or electricians for BMW or Siemens or whatever.

 

[warpus]

The major shouldn't really matter that much. I've switched to philosophy because I know that if I cannot make it at the academic top in that field, I will still have hands-on computer programming experience that will make me employable, should I need to be employed. (I don't really want it: I want to do my own stuff like writing and create games as long as I can support myself without these endeavours generating me income)

There is a major problem that degrees are overrelied upon by employers as a method gauge skills, which is a major problem in Germany and the Low Countries.

And finally, one doesn't study to be employed, unless it is absolutely necessary for your chosen field: You can be autodidactic chemist, philosopher or computer programmer, though autodidacticism isn't an option to practice law or medicine. Most students study for learning and life experiences.

A lot of places here require you to have an actual degree if you want to do programming work for larger companies, government institutions, etc. The smaller the company, the more likely it is that they won't care about any degrees and will look at your experience instead

 

[Ajidica]

I feel like the financial crisis really hurt people graduating from say 2008 to 2011, but in my cohort (most of whom graduated this year) there’s no shortage of opportunities for good Fortune 500 jobs, professional, or graduate school. Heck, I’ve been back in school for year and I still have recruiters contacting me to try and get me to interview for a software engineering position. Some of that might be geographic, since I live in a city with less than 2.5 percent unemployment, but I feel like saying millennials as a whole are screwed is inaccurate.

You live in Minnesota, right?

I think part of that is that Minnesota, and especially the Twin Cities, have really skewed our viewpoint. I have friends living in other areas of the country (like Michigan) who are in many ways more qualified than me, but they are doing stuff like call center jobs because there isn't really anything else around for them to do.

 

[dutchfire]

Yeah, but it's being done by Arabs and poles and Romanians, while France has two digits unemployment and far more sub-employement. Clearly there is something wrong with that picture.

More French people should become plumbers (and nurses and electricians and mechanics and etc), and less should become art historians / deliveroo couriers.

It's a cultural issue. In France it's perceived as higher status to be an unemployed philosopher or linguist or whatever, living off one's parents, than to be plumber or mechanic earning a good living. In Germany it's not the case. People are proud there to work as mechanics or electricians for BMW or Siemens or whatever.

I don't think all 3 million French unemployed are unemployed philosophers living off their parents, to be honest.

The employment rate gap between France and Germany is actually lowest for the tertiary education group. Hope this link works:
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=tepsr_wc120

 

[luiz]

I don't think all 3 million French unemployed are unemployed philosophers living off their parents, to be honest.

The employment rate gap between France and Germany is actually lowest for the tertiary education group. Hope this link works:
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=tepsr_wc120

There is still a huge employment gap between college educated people in the two countries. More than five percentage points is quite massive when talking about unemployment.

Also, the biggest problem for these college educated people in France is not so much unemployment, but sub-employement. Something like 80% of new work contracts in France are CDDs (very precarious temporary contracts). The philosophers and art historians are not necessarily unemployed, but they are making deliveries for Deliveroo or waiting our tables in restaurants, and depending on their parents to pay rent.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

There are some apprenticeship courses available for stuff like that but not enough people go into them for whatever reason.

There are a ton of apprenticeships; trades are alive and well and the labor shortage in them has been great for them.

People don't go into the trades because we have decided 4 year degrees are best for anyone and that's where parents send their kids. It's not even a question so much of kids picking bad degrees; it's as much if not more a question of bad parents making well-intentioned but seriously stupid decisions for their kids.

The 18-22 crowd do not have as much autonomy as we like to think. Particularly in a time when you can't find a job that would allow you independence until after you've completed a degree program.

Employers favor 4 year degrees because they teach communication and critical thinking skills, which are not easily obtainable except through a course of study culminating in a degree.

Employers will only stop requiring it if they find themselves unable to find enough employees that have them.

Agreed. I think this is the new normal and our insatiable appepetite for college degrees will not lessen. The major takeaway we are getting from the recession is that 4 year degrees are absolutely required to have any shot at upward mobility. And the evidence seems to back that up though it's a narrow view to take on what's going on with our economy.

You'd think less and less people would be going into non-stem like programs as a result of all this.. but... more and more people are blowing $50k+ on an education and are then.. surprised there's no jobs for some reason?

The problem is not what people are studying, it's what they're being forced to pay. I used to have a more militant view about this than what you posted here. I used to think that we should curtail public funding of most of the Arts (not eliminate but curtail).

I've since come to the conclusion that higher education is a requirement for self-fulfillment and is therefore a basic right. Here I mean self-fulfillment in the broadest possible terms including upward mobility, happiness, social utility, etc.

Therefore we should continue supporting higher educational attainment as we have in the past and should shift the cost burden off of students. I'm basically making the argument that college should be treated as primary school though with significantly more choice on the part of the student.

College is good for lots of reasons beside job training and we have already reached a point where a degree, any degree, is required for middle-income jobs. Since it doesn't matter what the kids want to study we shouldn't put that burden directly on them.

 

[Tahuti]

A lot of places here require you to have an actual degree if you want to do programming work for larger companies, government institutions, etc. The smaller the company, the more likely it is that they won't care about any degrees and will look at your experience instead

While I would say this generally holds true for the Netherlands as well, a degree isn't a must and there are ways to work around it if they say they require it.

The thing is, there official laws in place to make sure you need to have a medical or law degree if you want to become a medical doctor, or lawyer or judge.

It's a cultural issue. In France it's perceived as higher status to be an unemployed philosopher or linguist or whatever, living off one's parents, than to be plumber or mechanic earning a good living.

Go France!

 

[hobbsyoyo]

This is an interesting question. When we get sentient robots, will they see machine or non-sentient robot labour as slavery? Will they show little kiddie robots pictures of 19th century luddite propaganda? Or whine how the organics have always portrayed the machine as the other in their movies and created a narrative of the evil machineman?

I do not think we will ever enslave sentient AI's. Developing autonomous and capable robots (that are not sentient) is pretty much a prerequisite for developing fully sentient robots. Therefore when sentient AI comes I do not think there will be a huge need to enslave it for labor.

Though enslaving it for research is a strong possibility. I would just hope we don't cross that moral bridge.

People can study whatever they want, but I mean.. have a plan. If there is a shortage of political scientists in your region and they are getting paid the big bucks, and you're into political science, maybe it's not such a bad idea to look into political science. But if you live in the desert maybe don't study forestry. Or at least have a plan to at some point move closer to a forested area.

And this captures the fundamental problem of HCOL areas. Jobs are clustered and the better paying and more specialized it is, the more likely it is going to be in a big, expensive city.

I don't think that's necessarily true, especially at a time when more and more things are getting automated. But IMO if you are an up and coming student it is in your best interest to figure out the trends in the fields of the different types of jobs that might be options for you.. and using that information to figure out a financial plan for the future including potential careers in those fields. Or I don't know, at least take it as far as I did i.e. "hmm I guess I wouldn't mind working with computers, it doesn't seem to be a fad and there seem to be a lot of good jobs"

IMO it's cool to be passionate about a field that might not necessarily pay well, but at least have a plan. And a backup plan. If your plan is "1 in 400 chance of becoming an actual lumberjack" after you graduate from forestry school, then you gotta know what you're doing for money the minute your lumberjack dreams shatter into nothing

This shouldn't even be up for discussion. It only matters that people pick 'good' degrees because we saddle them with tens of thousands of dollars of debt after forcing them to make a choice in the first place.

College should be an experience available to anyone and for more reasons than just finding a job. If we accept that premise then it is immoral to shift the entire cost burden on people who do not have a realistic choice to not participate in the first place.

I feel like the financial crisis really hurt people graduating from say 2008 to 2011, but in my cohort (most of whom graduated this year) there’s no shortage of opportunities for good Fortune 500 jobs, professional, or graduate school. Heck, I’ve been back in school for year and I still have recruiters contacting me to try and get me to interview for a software engineering position. Some of that might be geographic, since I live in a city with less than 2.5 percent unemployment, but I feel like saying millennials as a whole are screwed is inaccurate.

Employment for college graduates is not the problem.

The problem is the debt burden and severely depressed wages.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

And the cost of an education itself has been dramatically inflated and distorted by poorly structured market and government incentives so there's that. We're not just forcing kids to pay the bill, we're forcing them to pay a bill that's riddled with more hidden fees than a Ticketmaster concert ticket.

 

[Hygro]

But I think people in their 30's have nothing to do with all the stereotypes associated with millenials.

Maybe the problem is the stereotypes...

 

[ls612]

You live in Minnesota, right?

I think part of that is that Minnesota, and especially the Twin Cities, have really skewed our viewpoint. I have friends living in other areas of the country (like Michigan) who are in many ways more qualified than me, but they are doing stuff like call center jobs because there isn't really anything else around for them to do.

Why don't your friends in Michigan move to the Twin Cities then? They wouldn't even be shocked by the winters which is the main barrier for people coming here.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Maybe the problem is the stereotypes...

What kind of Stereo Types?

 

[Hygro]

That is a beautiful image.

 

[luiz]

Maybe the problem is the stereotypes...

Could be, for sure. But I think there is a substantial cultural gap between 30 somethings and 20 somethings.