The spanking poll

[scy12]

I wouldn't want my kids to lie to me because they are afraid I'll hit them. I was hit over the smallest infractions. I learned to look my parents in the face and lie because I didn't want to be hit. When I got older and had real problems I was afraid to come to them because of the potential consequences. I think violence breaks some of the bonds of trust that parents and children should have.

Agreed. Now a question. How should we define Shouting ? It is not physical violence certainly. And i am not going to deny that sometimes is useful (But we should attempt for clam discussion first).

 

[Taras Bulba]

BRING BACK CORPORAL PUNISHMENT!

kids have gotten too soft, and think they can get away with too much with out getting any real punishment.

when kids know that if they do something bad, the hurt gets brought down upon them, they will eventually learn.... those who don't... well.... they'll just get beaten, and it'll be an example to the rest of us

since when is teaching a form of abuse.... might as well say history class is abuse to my brain!!! STOP THAT TOO!

 

[rhawn]

(But we should attempt for clam discussion first).

I don't understand that what means.

As far as shouting goes... It makes me think of little league dads that scream at their kids and make a total ass of themselves in public. I don't like that. I think it depends on what kind of screaming and how angry you are and what you say moreso than the actual volume of your voice. Parents are humans and imperfect as everyone else is and everyone has a breaking point. I'd rather have shouting than hitting anytime.

 

[scy12]

I don't understand that what means.

As far as shouting goes... It makes me think of little league dads that scream at their kids and make a total ass of themselves in public. I don't like that. I think it depends on what kind of screaming and how angry you are and what you say moreso than the actual volume of your voice. Parents are humans and imperfect as everyone else is and everyone has a breaking point. I'd rather have shouting than hitting anytime.

I don't understand that what means.

Clam = calm.

As far as shouting goes... It makes me think of little league dads that scream at their kids and make a total ass of themselves in public. I don't like that. I think it depends on what kind of screaming and how angry you are and what you say moreso than the actual volume of your voice. Parents are humans and imperfect as everyone else is and everyone has a breaking point. I'd rather have shouting than hitting anytime.

True Shouting may be more beneficial than hitting . But i think the same limitations and dangers of excessive violence should be applied to how shouting is used as well.

The Parents should attempt to train both themselfs and their childs to be able to better communicate by calmer methods. IMO.

 

[rhawn]

I agree 100%.

 

[Defiant47]

So you see spanking as a punishment?

What else could it be? But yes.

 

[El_Machinae]

What are you teaching a child when you spank them? And what is that child learning?

You're teaching the child using instantaneous, but temporary, consequences. It's an effective way of preventing a behaviour which would be difficult to extinguish using other techniques. "Time outs" for example, give an amply opportunity for the child to engage in rationalisation and to forget what they were doing when they were punished. They don't remember what they did (really) they just know they're being punished.

As well, it's a 'maximal' type of punishments. Some types of punishments work well when they're 'ramped up' with instances of misbehaving (i.e., longer timeouts or longer groundings, etc.). But some types of behaviour are best extinguished with a maximal punishment that only needs to be administered occassionally. Those behaviours shouldn't be dealt with a 'ramping up' scheme, because the child will habituate to the punishment and you'll eventually need ungodly levels of punishment in order to correct the behaviour.

Scolding doesn't always work. Reasoning doesn't always work. Grounding doesn't always work. Reduced priveleges doesn't always work. Spanking is just a specific tool and can easily be used as such.

 

[Dame Edna]

Frequent spanking should only be between two consenting adults!

About sums it up.

You want to discipline the little monsters - pull out ya gun and read 'em their rights!

 

[Ecofarm]

I would never teach my children that violence and humiliation solves problems.

It's bad enough when you realize such in the political realm; dealing with this reality as a child is unnecessary and even harmful.

I believe in tough love, but they can learn about sex and violence (in all their uses) later; really, manipulating this aspect of life is rather base and crass in the first place - to be a euphemist.

Spanking = "I wanna be a debaser".

 

[mrtn]

Spanking is illegal, and rightly so.

 

[MobBoss]

Spanking is illegal, and rightly so.

i.e. in theh nanny state, government spanks YOU!

 

[mrtn]

i.e. in theh nanny state, government spanks YOU!

No, that's illegal as well, and rightly so.

 

[Azale]

Are you serious???????????????

I thought that, perhaps, since your theory was sooo far out there you might have been kidding. I sadly was mistaken.

 

[Mise]

What else could it be? But yes.

There have been two other suggestions as to what it could be so far in this thread.

You're teaching the child using instantaneous, but temporary, consequences. It's an effective way of preventing a behaviour which would be difficult to extinguish using other techniques. "Time outs" for example, give an amply opportunity for the child to engage in rationalisation and to forget what they were doing when they were punished. They don't remember what they did (really) they just know they're being punished.

As well, it's a 'maximal' type of punishments. Some types of punishments work well when they're 'ramped up' with instances of misbehaving (i.e., longer timeouts or longer groundings, etc.). But some types of behaviour are best extinguished with a maximal punishment that only needs to be administered occassionally. Those behaviours shouldn't be dealt with a 'ramping up' scheme, because the child will habituate to the punishment and you'll eventually need ungodly levels of punishment in order to correct the behaviour.

Scolding doesn't always work. Reasoning doesn't always work. Grounding doesn't always work. Reduced priveleges doesn't always work. Spanking is just a specific tool and can easily be used as such.

You seem to be saying that spanking in neccessary in certain situations. Do these situations occur in all families?

If so, how do you account for the fact that parents who spank their children acheive broadly the same results as parents who don't spank their children?

If not, then it seems that kids who are spanked tend to be more unruly and less disciplined than kids who are not spanked. How can you be sure that spanking isn't the cause of such disobedience?

 

[El_Machinae]

You seem to be saying that spanking in neccessary in certain situations. Do these situations occur in all families?

I'm not an expert on family discipline, so most of my knowledge comes from being a parent and from my knowledge of the Psychology of Learning.

I would guess that there are situations where spanking would have been a better choice, but not that there are always situations where spanking is necessary. Kids will learn using a multitude of techniques, and so most things will eventually work: it's just a matter of the discipline intensity needed and the amount of time necessary.

If so, how do you account for the fact that parents who spank their children acheive broadly the same results as parents who don't spank their children?

Because lots of things work. Spanking is only a tiny subset of what raises a child.

If not, then it seems that kids who are spanked tend to be more unruly and less disciplined than kids who are not spanked. How can you be sure that spanking isn't the cause of such disobedience?

Well, anecdotally, I don't know if that's true. I can think of plenty of lousy children who don't get spanked. As well, even though spanking is a viable tool, not everyone applies it perfectly or even properly.

Unruly and wild children do seem to be a bit of a problem, and we're not really knowledgable enough (as individual parents) to know what to do with them. Such behaviour can have a myriad of causes, causes from well before spanking was introduced. But, as well, some spanking parents aren't doing it correctly or wisely. Spanking is a good tool to extinguish a specific behaviour quickly. The earlier you can identify the specific behaviour (and describe it to the child, with words or without) the more useful it can be: ideally, you shouldn't need to spank more than a couple times to get a kid to stop doing something specific. "Giving mom a headache" is not a behaviour which can specifically be extinguished.

 

[Mise]

Because lots of things work. Spanking is only a tiny subset of what raises a child.

Well, anecdotally, I don't know if that's true. I can think of plenty of lousy children who don't get spanked. As well, even though spanking is a viable tool, not everyone applies it perfectly or even properly.

A few questions:

How easy is spanking to "get wrong"? (e.g. how easy is it to spank too frequently, or too hard?)

Are there any negative consequences to getting it wrong?

If spanking isn't necessary, yet I do it anyway, how do I justify putting my own children in unnecessary danger?

(Trying not to make it too personal here, hence the "I"s -- I don't have children.)

 

[El_Machinae]

If spanking isn't necessary, yet I do it anyway, how do I justify putting my own children in unnecessary danger?

Well, there's also the danger of not spanking when it would have been appropriate (or the best solution) and then the second-best solution wasn't used appropriately either.

Yes, spanking can be misused. But so can grounding. And you don't want to misuse grounding when spanking would have worked better anyway.

Think of vegetarianism as an analogy. You can properly raise a child as a vegetarian, even though meat-eating can have its place. And an unwise parent could screw up either style of eating.

 

[Mise]

Well, there's also the danger of not spanking when it would have been appropriate (or the best solution) and then the second-best solution wasn't used appropriately either.

Yes, spanking can be misused. But so can grounding. And you don't want to misuse grounding when spanking would have worked better anyway.

Think of vegetarianism as an analogy. You can properly raise a child as a vegetarian, even though meat-eating can have its place. And an unwise parent could screw up either style of eating.

Well, the reason I asked about the dangers of spanking was because I feel that there is more risk involved in spanking than in not spanking. I also feel that it is easier to overuse spanking than to underuse it.

I think that it is easier to overfeed a child than to underfeed one; but the risks of underfeeding are greater than overfeeding, so I wouldn't stop feeding my child in the same way that I would stop spanking my child.

I also think that the danger of over-spanking is greater than the danger of over-grounding.

Then there's the problem of perception; someone who thinks they are under-spanking is probably over-spanking, in the same way that someone who thinks they're talking too slow when giving a lecture or presentation is probably talking too fast.

In other words, I think that it is so difficult to judge when it is appropriate to spank, the positive effects of spanking are so minimal in comparison with the negative effects of spanking, and the negative effects of spanking are so great compared with the negative effects of not spanking, that spanking is a straight up gamble. I don't think I would gamble with my children's welfare.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yeah, that's very fair. I wouldn't feel very safe in suggesting that a parent spank a child if they were uncomfortable with it, even if it was (imo) appropriate.

It is interesting that most people who're okay with spanking were spanked themselves. Clearly, there is a cohort where it was done wisely. I've also successfully used spanking. Clearly, there should be more education on the topic.

 

[Snovvdog]

Parental = okay, as long as it's not done by thirds.