The Speech

Which makes me have to buy crappier products at higher prices.

Management just should have just fired them and hired cheap immigrant labor. I despise Obama's protectionist policies(overall against outsourcing and not giving tax breaks to companies that outsource). It just results in me having to buy crappy products at higher prices. Globalization is happening, whether you like it or not.

Fired them like Ron Reagan fired the air traffic controllers. We haven't had another strike yet! Watch Roger & Me; does the exact opposite of what Michael Moore wanted to convey.

And FTR, I love my Mexican built auto from Daimler Chrysler and they made a few thousand on it too!

~Chris
 
Regarding the whole auto debate thing, the issue isn't whether or not the union workers are overpaid. Of course they are.

But nobody ever forced top management to sign the union contracts they did.

Management has had DECADES to fight and break the unions. They've got nobody to blame but themselves.

To blame the union workers is the very definition of placing blame where it doesn't belong.

And it's flat out stupid.

And if anybody wonders if I work in a plant....no. My father was a white collar employee for Chrysler for almost 30 years, and I now work for another major auto company.
 
Regarding the whole auto debate thing, the issue isn't whether or not the union workers are overpaid. Of course they are.

But nobody ever forced top management to sign the union contracts they did.

Management has had DECADES to fight and break the unions. They've got nobody to blame but themselves.

To blame the union workers is the very definition of placing blame where it doesn't belong.

And it's flat out stupid.

And if anybody wonders if I work in a plant....no. My father was a white collar employee for Chrysler for almost 30 years, and I now work for another major auto company.

me said:
It's as much their fault as it is manegement's fault. It's not like the managers offered them those absurd sums - they achieved them through strikes, threats and an overall war strategy. Michigan unions are considered the most combative in the world. That can't be good for business. I don't deny that management should have stood up to them, but it didn't.

Anyway, organized labor was greedy and wildly irresponsible; ultimately they destroyed their own jobs (or the jobs of their children), and are reduced to voting for populist politicians that promiss them welfare and protectionism.

..........
 
Please please please please please do not make the Big Three out to be victims here.

The UAW is made up of people like white trash from Downriver Detroit.

These are not all-powerful people we are talking about.
 
Actually, as I have posted 20 times before, the UAW ISNT THE ONLY REASON.

Also, the UAW wasnt created yesterday...when they go on strike and take out a good chunk of the work force and possibly have the ability to shut down a whole plant...they have management by the balls. They may have been created by a management 30 years ago that isnt in place today...but today they're causing problems for the those in charge of today.

Again, the UAW has to go.

So the way to save management is to make everyone else worse off? What's the point? The UAW is not the problem. Management is.
 
Good grief Cutlass, you are completely out in left field here.

Do you know what happens when, because of the need to reduce manufacturing supply, an American autoplant closes for a few days?

Do you understand that the per-car profit in the US is non-existant, while in Japan it is an average of $3000?

Do you realize that GM pays out nearly $2,000 in health care benefits per car?

The Unions have crippled the auto industry. They cannot make money. Don't give us this bull about quality...your stuck in the 1980's. American cars and trucks frequently rank very high in consumer quality rankings. The safety records of American cars are excellent. It is not the product, it is the costs!

You are right about one thing, the quality levels of currently produced automobiles are partly to blame. Instead of buying new cars left and right, Americans are keeping their cars longer because they can.

Productivity in the American auto industry is in the toilet, while in nearly every other American productivity is first-class. Why? Because these unions imposed hourly standards, while in Japan such standards don't even exist. UAW wants (and gets) 2X overtime pay...who the hell can afford that?

Constant, crippling strikes don't help either Cutlass. Remember that stirike last year at GM that lasted for 5 days? Do you know what the union was crying for? A STOP TO THE OUTSOURCING! As well as increased retirement packages and part-time full-time conversion. It really is a joke.

You say it is not costs--explain how Toyota and GM both make nearly the same revenues every year and yet Toyota turns billions in profit while GM loses billions? Perhaps it is the underlying costs of producing one car?

Merk addressed the union problems pretty well. I don't need to repeat everything he wrote. But you haven't addressed any of his arguments, including why foreign automakers in the US have such greater profit margins per car than do American ones. You probably don't even need a hint.

Labor Unions have lost much of their power in the last 30 years. American productivity has increased too. However, and unfortunately, the labor stranglehold on the auto industry is alive and well.

One thing is for sure, if I were operating an auto manufacturer, I would get out of the US and go elsewhere. Dump the union whiners and find people who really want to work hard to earn a fair wage.

Floor workers at American Axle make on average $70 an hour.

There is no way a Union stranglehold on any American Company won't prevent the inabliity to compete on a global market. There is two ways an American auto manufactuer can save themselves: lower costs (including wages and employee packages) or move offshore. Guess what won't work?

~Chris

1, i never read what that fruitcake merk writes, because I have his account set to ignore. I simply don't see it.

2, what you still fundamentally do not get is a little concept called personal responsibility: I'll say is s.l.o.w.l.y..
the
people
who
made
the
decisions
are
responsible
for
the
outcomes

the
management
made
the
decisions

get it now? :rolleyes:
 
You're way off.

Once again, I'll say that what bankrupted the US auto industry was not a lack of sales, unlike what you imply in your other post. It was all about costs. You are mad if you think american labour is that much productive than japanese labour to justify such colossal difference in payment and benefits. Fact is it isn't.

If there was the costs were offset by the increased production, as you falsely claim, then the car makers would not be moving out of Michigan, which they are. GM in Brazil has huge profits, I think even their european division is profitable. It's all about insane labor costs.

Now, you won't see any argument from me that management was irresponsible to allow it to get this bad. They should have presented an ultimatum to UAW much sooner : back down or we're out of here. Now there is an unwritten ultimatum, anyway.

Edit: sonorakitch said it all better. Ultimately it all comes down to the fact that per-car profit of GM and Ford is close to zero, while it is significant in many other auto-makers; and that Toyota manages to have a huge profit with a total revenue not much bigger than GM (in fact smaller untill very recently), while GM is always reporting losses, so it is obviously about costs.

If it is about costs, how can Japanese cars sell for more than American cars? You are utterly clueless about the auto industry.
 
So the way to save management is to make everyone else worse off? What's the point? The UAW is not the problem. Management is.

By worse off do you mean paying people equal to what their skills are? Sorry, you cannot in anyway justify to me being paid 30 bucks an hour to turn bolts.

The UAW has grown out of control. Yes, management let them reach this point, but there is apoint where you have to say enough is enough. The management of today cannot do anything about it. Like I said, when the UAW strikes (which seems to be every month) entire plants are shut down. Management can't have these plants shut down. They cant take the time to rehire and train everyone, so they have to give in.

Usuallyu it's for more money, which just puts the company more in debt and it just spirals. It's something that the UAW cannot seem to comprehend. The companies are starting to buy out workers...which puts them more in debt but should help in the long run as the new people are getting paid 15 or so an hour...something more inline with their skills.
 
get it now? :rolleyes:

I agree; management should have fired them all and moved manufacturing overseas.

But the problem exists because of the unions actions. It is awfully hard to play hardball when the unions strike during negotiations, further sending the company in the toilet.

So fine. We both agree management should have moved operations to a union free zone. I agree that is their fault. The unfortunate thing is that because of Unions, it will happen, has happend, and in the process, left thousands out of work.

~Chris
 
I really don't see any strikes labor is winning. It gets weaker every year. You are just passing off the failures of management. Labor is doing what it is supposed to do. It is supposed to get what it is possible to get for it's members.

Do you know what the labor theory of value is? Do you know what is wrong with it?

Labor does the work.
But capital supplies the tools and work location.
Management organizes the work.

In the automakers case, the capital is failing to deliver the necessary tools, and management is failing to organize the work.

The UAW isn't nearly strong enough to change that.

It has just become the conservative version of politically correct to inherently blame labor. It's all about class responsibility over personal responsibility. Unions just aren't that strong.

The unions are far from perfect. But they aren't the cause of management making decades worth of idiotic decisions.
 
I agree; management should have fired them all and moved manufacturing overseas.

But the problem exists because of the unions actions. It is awfully hard to play hardball when the unions strike during negotiations, further sending the company in the toilet.

So fine. We both agree management should have moved operations to a union free zone. I agree that is their fault. The unfortunate thing is that because of Unions, it will happen, has happend, and in the process, left thousands out of work.

~Chris

So you believe that labor should automatically roll over and starve to death and that making nearly everyone worse off somehow makes people better off?
 
Well, let the American automakers die, we'll see who those idiots at UAW strike to when there's only Japanese car companies left who don't have unionized workers.

Cutlass, what do you not get?

Japanese auto manufacturers pay their workers $15/hr.
American auto manufacturer pay their workers $25/hr

The workers do the EXACT SAME THING

Do you see why they might have a competitive advantage?
 
If it is about costs, how can Japanese cars sell for more than American cars? You are utterly clueless about the auto industry.

Let me repeat it for you: untill very recently, GM had a bigger revenue than Toyota. It still has a bigger revenue than Honda, or Mitsubishi. Those companies manage to have profits, GM doesn't.

Why oh why? You see, to make a profit just selling cars isn't good enough. You can sell 10 times more cars than all japanese companies combined, but if you don't have a per car profit you won't have a total profit, as bizarre as that may sound to you.
 
So you believe that labor should automatically roll over and starve to death and that making nearly everyone worse off somehow makes people better off?

Hahahaha...$70/hr is not starving to death. $30/hr isn't either. Neither is $18/hr. Not even in Connecticut.

There are thriving industries all over the world where people are paid good wages for a decent days' work. And they don't have unions. Unions are dead, except in old timer industries which are rotting away anyways. A correlation I would think!

Labor is doing what it is supposed to do. It is supposed to get what it is possible to get for it's members.

By using strongarm tactics further crippling the ability for the company to compete in a globalized world. That is what you fail to get Cutlass. Labor unions worked fine without globalization. Now, in an age of great competition from across the globe, we have to maintain a lean workforce while maintaining lean balance sheets. If we don't, we fail, and those who can will win. Do you want the American automobile industry to just die away to Japan? Even...in a decade or so...to China? That is what is happening, and GM can't do squat about it unless they move their operations elsewhere.

It's called comparative advantage.

~Chris
 
Let me repeat it for you: untill very recently, GM had a bigger revenue than Toyota. It still has a bigger revenue than Honda, or Mitsubishi. Those companies manage to have profits, GM doesn't.
It is selling an unprofitable product mix for one thing. It has mismanaged its labor costs for another. Perhaps they need to poach some managers from Japan.
 
That really won't help Jolly, you can't pay your workers 30,40,or 50 percent more than your competitor and still expect to be competitive. The wages need to come down for anything to work at all.

Either that or Obama will raise import taxes so high that Japanese costs will be equal to American ones. But then I could see other countries doing that in retribution so it'd be a stupid idea.
 
Please please please please please do not make the Big Three out to be victims here.

The UAW is made up of people like white trash from Downriver Detroit.

These are not all-powerful people we are talking about.

They are also full of political connections and were capable of dealing a devastating blow to several major corporations.

It is patently obvious for everyone but Barack Obama and some people on this thread that Michigan auto workers are a bunch of overpaid whiners, and that said overpayement was the undoing of the Big 3.

It's very easy for you and me to just say that they should have fired everybody (and they should), but it is another story when your plants are stopped because of strikes and you have politicians connected to unions trying to stop you from taking harsher measures.

As I said, the michigan auto industry unions are regarded as the most combative in the world. Dealing with them is obviously not an easy task. Note that I am not exhonerating management from guilt: as far as I care they deserve to be as unemployed and broke as the union guys.
 
Well, wages are only part of the problem, the litigation costs and dealing with Unions like Luiz said costs a fortune and the costs of having plants shut down all the time.

Toyota workers actually made more than UAW workers last year because there not 10 layers of red tape to go through like there is with the unions.

Japanese may have plants in the United States but that doesn't mean they pay the same.
 
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