The stop of terrorizem, not possible with out muslims?

[Hygro]

What makes you think the vast majority of them don't care? And why should they "obsess" over it? Do you?

To be more explicit, and because you may have been trying to further my rhetorical point and I might have missed that :

Obviously lots of Muslims care, and I don't really have a say over what "they" should "obsess" about. My point was that the argument put forth by DefenderofIslam was self-contradictory, or at least hypocritical. Hypocrisy is not the greatest sin by any means, but it does mean one should stop to reflect the cause of that hypocrisy and reevaluate things.

It is worth noting that when I engage DefenderofIslam in discussion, I am not projecting his views onto those of all Muslims, nor am I projecting any aggregate views of Muslims onto him. I am instead examining his personal views of culture at large.

 

[NovaKart]

Yeah it's stupid about pepsi, actually I've only heard that rumor once, maybe it's not common. The Coca Cola logo dates from the 19th century so it's also a rumor that's very easy to disprove. I forgot to mention how it's related to Israel, I was told that Jews paid for the logo to secretly be insulting to Islam.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Watch Al Jazeera some time and see how often Israel comes up.

You do realize that Al-Jazeera is a Middle Eastern news organization, and that Israel is part of the Middle East. Right?

To be more explicit, and because you may have been trying to further my rhetorical point and I might have missed that :.

Not at all.

Obviously lots of Muslims care, and I don't really have a say over what "they" should "obsess" about. My point was that the argument put forth by DefenderofIslam was self-contradictory, or at least hypocritical. Hypocrisy is not the greatest sin by any means, but it does mean one should stop to reflect the cause of that hypocrisy and reevaluate things.

I don't see his statement being contradictory or hypocritical in the least. Instead, I see him trying to respond to an obvious strawman.

It is worth noting that when I engage DefenderofIslam in discussion, I am not projecting his views onto those of all Muslims, nor am I projecting any aggregate views of Muslims onto him. I am instead examining his personal views of culture at large.

In other words, you are trying to discuss the poster instead of the topic? That it merely seems like you are advocating the opinions of so many ultraconservatives regarding this particular topic since you keep repeating them?

 

[Holycannoli]

Many Christians and other groups which are religious fail to do this. Why do you demand it of Muslims?

Everybody should. Everybody should integrate. When it's small communities it's not a problem, like the Amish. When it becomes a worldwide occurance of immigrants refusing to integrate and maintaining a different sense of self vs the rest of their community (IE being a cultural muslim before a cultural Brit or American), it becomes a problem.

I thought I had heard a few years ago that Britain's stance on immigration was something like "We welcome you to emigrate to Britain, but become British". No idea where I heard it but it did stick with me. That's what should be happening everywhere.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Everybody should. Everybody should integrate. When it's small communities it's not a problem, like the Amish. When it becomes a worldwide occurance of immigrants refusing to integrate and maintaining a different sense of self vs the rest of their community (IE being a cultural muslim before a cultural Brit or American), it becomes a problem.

I thought I had heard a few years ago that Britain's stance on immigration was something like "We welcome you to emigrate to Britain, but become British". No idea where I heard it but it did stick with me. That's what should be happening everywhere.

I know. Anybody who won't turn into a white Christian, like the population of the vast majority in the US and most of Europe, is another example of how "multiculturalism has failed".

The only problem here is the absurd requirement for all people to become instantly homogenized when they immigrate to a new country. It has never happened and it never will. England has had a far larger problem getting along with Catholics than they will likely ever have doing so with Muslims. You don't have to renounce your religion to become British, or any other nationality.

 

[Hygro]

I feel like because you've chosen to engage me as a conversational adversary, no matter what I say, you will find a way to argue against it until this thread reaches 1000 posts.

I'm merely pointing out that DefenderofIslam is using an elementary argument of someone who just discovered this topic, and might consider a lot of other issues of significance and perhaps realize that the entire moniker "defender of Islam" assumes a position that Islam needs defending, because it is somehow under attack. Islam doesn't need defending because nobody is attacking it, least of all Israel the nation-state. By addressing the user I address the underlying perspective.

 

[Formaldehyde]

And now you are trying to discuss me instead of the topic? I am merely responding to your remarks in this thread. It really has nothing to do with any other posts you have made.

And Islam is obviously under attack by many ultraconservatives, especially since 9/11. This thread is yet another classic example, as are many others in this forum.

 

[Hygro]

This thread is an example of DefenderofIslam defending Islam against... nobody, since no one here is attacking it.

Certain aforementioned conservatives in America do not have enough power to hurt Islam, even if their beliefs and actions disproportionately hurt Muslims.

 

[Holycannoli]

I know. Anybody who won't turn into a white Christian, like the population of the vast majority in the US and most of Europe, is another example of how "multiculturalism has failed".

The only problem here is the absurd requirement for all people to become instantly homogenized when they immigrate to a new country. It has never happened and it never will. England has had a far larger problem getting along with Catholics than they will likely ever have doing so with Muslims. You don't have to renounce your religion to become British, or any other nationality.

It's not the religion, it's the culture that I'm talking about. There are jewish groups that do more or less the same thing: purposely keep themselves separate from the rest of the community. I think all the major religions have groups that do this, but with islam it seems widespread and not limited to certain fringe groups.

Practicing your religion and clinging to a religious culture that differs vastly from the surrounding community are two different things. Why emigrate to a different country if you aren't going to integrate? Why emigrate to another country if your true loyalties may clash with your new country? I'm not talking about moving to another country because of a job, I'm talking about making a conscious decision to move to and live in a new country that differs significantly from your homeland, and yet refusing to integrate when you get there.

 

[illram]

Everybody should. Everybody should integrate. When it's small communities it's not a problem, like the Amish. When it becomes a worldwide occurance of immigrants refusing to integrate and maintaining a different sense of self vs the rest of their community (IE being a cultural muslim before a cultural Brit or American), it becomes a problem.

I thought I had heard a few years ago that Britain's stance on immigration was something like "We welcome you to emigrate to Britain, but become British". No idea where I heard it but it did stick with me. That's what should be happening everywhere.

What is American anyway? The most American thing I can think of is not caring if someone else wishes to stay deeply rooted in their culture of choice, practicing their religion of choice, and doing what they please and raising their family however they see fit. (Within the bounds of the law obviously.) Being "American" in that respect then simply means paying your taxes and not breaking the law. I.e., following the most fundamental tenets of our little shared social contract.

I feel like the flaw in your thinking (correct me if I am wrong) is you are looking at a cultural dimension to this and assuming that maintaining a non-Western or non mainstream Judeo-Christian cultural identity is not "American." While American is a majority "western" in that sense I think that this association is more a matter of circumstance than of intent, and failure to adhere to that cultural norm, so long as our laws are followed, is perfectly acceptable and in fact more "American" than anything else, since this country is so rooted in the idea of accepting all and allowing all to believe and act as they wish. (Or at least that's what we like to tell ourselves. Obviously we have a nice long history of not accepting different cultures and races. BUT I think eventually we try to figure it out in the end, it's just always a cycle with each one.)

I.e. you believe (and again correct me if I am wrong) there is something inherent in being "muslim" that inclines someone who wants to be "muslim first american second" to act in a way that is harmful to others or harmful to the country. Which, of course, is ridiculous.

I think the correct rule you are looking for is "not a terrorist." That would be my main criteria.

 

[Hygro]

This thread is an example of DefenderofIslam defending Islam against... nobody, since no one here is attacking it.

Alright, Form, I take this statement back They came out of the woodwork.

 

[Leoreth]

At least this is changing and now many Muslims are condemning Qaddafi.

Apparently Erdogan doesn't get this with his policies concerning the Libyan civil war.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Alright, Form, I take this statement back They came out of the woodwork.

They always do...


Link to video.


Link to video.

 

[Luckymoose]

Using you as an example of all Muslims everywhere, I have to say you make me want to fire bomb the entire region.*


*Just acting like he says we act.

 

[bernie14]

world views on religion pew poll 2005.

you can always quote some anecdotal extremist.....but the statistics are telling, to be fair though, i dont see isreal in the poll

 

[Joecoolyo]

^^ What you dont understand is like the prophet mohhomad (pbuh) said that the ummah is like a body and when one muslim is hurt in the world the whole world gos to the aid. Muslems obssess over isreal becuase there fellow muslims, nay there brothers are suffering

According to Wikipedia, Palestinians are denied citizenship in Lebanon (also basic human rights, such barring them from applying to certain jobs, healthcare, etc.), the Arab League has also instructed it's members to deny citizenship to Palestinian Refugees and their descendants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Lebanon

While, over a million Palestinians reside in Israel (20% of the population) who have citizenship, and are given the same exact rights as everyone else in the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_citizens_of_Israel

 

[jojorah]

Most muslims dont dislike jews, most muslims dislike zionizem. Isreal is just one peice of land to me it dosnt matter who controls it (though in my bais the palistinians). I will touch opon women rights in the quran and the huge amount of peacefull verses and misconseptions in a latter post.

Though i agree with you that you do hear a lot of crazy things about the massad and isreal that arnt true. But what about the time glen beck reffered about the anti christ being the muslem version of the messiah. or the wide spread "therie" that most muslems in the u.s are "stealth jihadists". This appears quite freqently on fox news.

Also go to al jazeera english right now http://www.youtube.com/user/aljazeeraenglish?blend=1&ob=4 , no mention of ireal. Though isreal has commited some evil things, like bombing a synagoug and BLAMMING IT ON PALISTIANS. Thats fact.

Its simple most muslims dont "obssess" over isreal, they just disagree with the things they do.

 

[NovaKart]

The statistics about Turkey surprised me but I think it does kind of make sense. Turks generally are not anti-Christian when it comes to foreigners but as far as people from their own country it's different. Most Christians are Armenians and Greeks which are generally disliked. Turkey's population is overwhelmingly Muslim, aside from some Armenians and Greeks there are a few Assyrian Christians in the southeast near Mardin but very few. Turks are also very suspicious of missionaries. There aren't many churches in Turkey other than historic ones many of which are no longer used.

I haven't kept up with Tayyip Erodgan's opinions of Libya and Qaddafi. It's certainly been front page in the news here but I tend to read English language papers.

 

[bernie14]

Most muslims dont dislike jews, most muslims dislike zionizem.

so the pew poll of majority muslim countries only applies 60-100% unfavorable view of ZIONIST jews? and 0-18% are the "good" jews?

 

[Joecoolyo]

I can't tell if this post is a response to mine or not, but I'll respond anyways

Most muslims dont dislike jews, most muslims dislike zionizem. Isreal is just one peice of land to me it dosnt matter who controls it (though in my bais the palistinians). I will touch opon women rights in the quran and the huge amount of peacefull verses and misconseptions in a latter post.

If it doesn't matter, then why all the hubbub?

Though i agree with you that you do hear a lot of crazy things about the massad and isreal that arnt true. But what about the time glen beck reffered about the anti christ being the muslem version of the messiah. or the wide spread "therie" that most muslems in the u.s are "stealth jihadists". This appears quite freqently on fox news.

Fox News/Glen Beck doesn't represent Western views just as much as terrorists groups don't represent Muslim views (bad comparison, Fox News are terrorists, just untrustworthy, which is what I'm getting at).

Also go to al jazeera english right now http://www.youtube.com/user/aljazeeraenglish?blend=1&ob=4 , no mention of ireal.

No mention of the recent bombing of a bus stop there?

Though isreal has commited some evil things, like bombing a synagoug and BLAMMING IT ON PALISTIANS. Thats fact.

wat

also, [citation needed]

Its simple most muslims dont "obssess" over isreal, they just disagree with the things they do.

Yes, just as much as Israeli's aren't committing "evil things" like bombing synagogues and blaming Palestinians.