Three God Questions

I'll answer this challenge--and I'm not even religious. I'm an ATHEIST.

1:jesus:
What's up with people saying they're "doing the Lord's work"? Why can't the Lord do his own work? If he's all-powerful, all-mighty, all-that, why does he have fragile, fallible humans doing his work? Hell, why doesn't he do our work for a change, if he loves us so damn much?
Your parents love you--yet at some point they insist you move out of the house and support yourself. So, God probably says what He says for the same reason your parents say what They do.

2:jesus:
People make a big deal out of him sending his only son to earth to die for our sins. (Because he loves us.) But if he's all-powerful, all-mighty, all-that, why didn't he have more sons?
Because more quantity = less quality.

3:jesus:
Why was it necessary to crucify Jesus to forgive our sins? Why couldn't the all-powerful, all-mighty, all-that God just forgive us because he chose to?
When your kids are obedient and helpful and kind (and perhaps thrifty, brave, clean and reverent) it's easy to say you love them.

How about right after your kids have an accident with their chemistry set and your kitchen catches fire? Not so easy to remember the love part, is it?

That's the real test of love--not when things are going great, but when things are going really, really wrong.
 
If it's loving for God to sacrifice his son for humanity, is it loving for me to sacrifice my son for humanity?
My freedom was brought by the blood of men. Many in the past have sacrificed so we can live free.

BasketCase made a interesting case for an atheist.


What's up with people saying they're "doing the Lord's work"? Why can't the Lord do his own work? If he's all-powerful, all-mighty, all-that, why does he have fragile, fallible humans doing his work? .... why doesn't he do our work for a change, if he loves us so **** much?
There is a difference between God as Lord and a genie. Also what better way to reach mankind than to use other men. As far as God own work (even though he is suppose to be a spirit) how do you know He is not doing His own work?
People make a big deal out of him sending his only son to earth to die for our sins. (Because he loves us.) But if he's all-powerful, all-mighty, all-that, why didn't he have more sons?
The Father begotten His Son was only needed once. Eventually the Son will return to the Godhead.
Why was it necessary to crucify Jesus to forgive our sins? Why couldn't the all-powerful, all-mighty, all-that God just forgive us because he chose to?
Because there is always a cost even with forgiveness. For God to be just and well as merciful He had to pay the cost of redemption Himself or He wouldn't be any better than a corrupt judge.
( Ex: If someone stole my car and wreck it and I forgave them without them paying me back then I pay the price as now I'm out of a car. Thus sometimes it's hard to forgive because of it's cost even when money not involved)
 
@thescaryworker

Good answers
Thank you. Good questions. :goodjob:

If it's just that humans don't know why God does something (in their God-universe framework) they ought to just say "I don't know why".
You are correct that that they should admit that they do not know, but there's something about humans and admitting ignorance. Especially willing ignorance.

Having an understanding of the universe in which things cannot be explained doesn't sit well with me. It's cool if you don't know the answer, but don't tell me there is no answer.
The answer is probably something along the lines of ...
God, being able to see the n-dimensional matrix of the entire universe (including all possible paths, all possible choices, and all possible endings) through time, and is able to make decisions that seem to make little change in our narrow, 3.5D view of the universe. We are thus blind to almost anything He does because of how narrow our view of reality is.

Which could be simplified into:
1. God knows more than you do.
2. I do know God's justification for event x.
 
Well, to be honest, I find your answer little incomplete too, because it doesn't tell why the penalty of sin is death. Why couldn't God just forgive?

Because that is the penalty God set forth i the Garden. When he told them of the consequence of there actions when he said, "when you eat of the the fruit, you shall surely die." That was the curse that God said would happen when they eat of the fruit. Here is how PUal explained the situation.
Romans 5:12-21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The reason death is around us so that it is possible for us to be changed from the bondage of sin. Imagine living forever while your body is having problems? It is just not much of a good thought I would say. And the Bible does say that those who believe in Christ will have there bodies changed. Have a look at this chapter and see what it says. 1 Corinthians 15
Also you cannot forgive someone if they do not ask for it. How can you forgive someone if they still believe that they are doing the right thing when they are doing the wrong thing? It is just not possible because the person receiving this "forgiveness" will just continue in his way and when yo are forgiven of something it shows that you have done something wrong. There are two conditions on receiving forgiveness. The first one is confession, meaning that you are admitting that you are wrong. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The other condition is repentance, literally meaning to change one's mind. LUke 17:3-4 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
How can you possibly forgive someone who does not meet those conditions? Lets say you are married and your wife commits adultery and you find out and she does not stop, are you going to forgive her, even though she knows she is guilty of doing wrong and yet she refuses to admit that she is wrong and will not even bather to change what she is doing?This is just an example of situation that might happen to you, so it would be interesting to see how you would react in that situation.

@Lucy, you are spot on. Faith is the requirement we need to have when trusting in Jesus. But it is not blind faith, since if you read the Bible you will see many places where people put God to the test to see how he reacts and they have been rewarded for fully keeping faith in God. Job is a very good example, since he lost everything except his faith in Jesus, so after the end of trials he was rewarded for trusting in God. Having faith in God is the best thing that I have done. Faith is the only way we can be pleasing to God. Hebrews 10:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Since you have seen that it is faith that is the step you need to take, rare you willing to take that step?
 
But it is not blind faith, since if you read the Bible you will see many places where people put God to the test to see how he reacts and they have been rewarded for fully keeping faith in God. Job is a very good example, since he lost everything except his faith in Jesus, so after the end of trials he was rewarded for trusting in God.
Job is a good example of people who put God to the test?

Methinks you have some roles reversed there.
 
Well he is an example of someone who put his trust in God. I just got lost in two train of thoughts at the same time. The best example of someone who tested God was Gideon to see if it was really God's will for him to lead the Israelites. I often do that, put two train of thoughts togethr and it does not make much snce at time.
 
What I don’t understand about Jesus dying for our sins, so we could be saved is: Jesus was God in the flesh, right? If so, why was it necessary for God to sacrifice himself to hiself in order to allow himself to change the rule (that he made in the first place) which decided whether or not a person goes to hell?

However, I believe this argument should be taken one step further:
- God exists outside of existence*. Thus, both atheists and theists are wrong, as god is in a state of simultaneous existence and non-existence at the same time.

*If god exists only inside of existence, then something would be bigger than himself and he would not be all-powerful.

What does something being bigger than Him have to do with his omnipotence?

Originally Posted by Atticus
Well, to be honest, I find your answer little incomplete too, because it doesn't tell why the penalty of sin is death. Why couldn't God just forgive?

Originally Posted by classical hero
Because that is the penalty God set forth i the Garden. When he told them of the consequence of there actions when he said, "when you eat of the the fruit, you shall surely die." That was the curse that God said would happen when they eat of the fruit.

I do not believe that’s referencing death as a punishment to sin, but that because of the original sin, mankind was no longer immortal. The punishment was that man was made mortal, and was then able to die.
 
classical hero, I still don't understand: why can't God just say "well ok, I said that the penalty of sin is death, but lets change that to something milder, like a small fine or community service". Also I don't understand how can someone suffer the penalty instead for someone else (you probably explained it, but in a way that I didn't quite grasp), and especially I don't understand why he (Jesus) even had to suffer, if the sins for which he suffered are forgiven.

You apparently mean by sin something else that I'm thinking, youi seem to think that I'm doing sin until I start believing in God and ask forgiveness. I'd like to hear some clarification to that.

The wife-scenario is little hard to imagine, since I suppose nobody would stay in that kind of marriage, and the cheating could be forgiven afterwards. But also I suppose the inability to forgive would be something humane, and God would be above that, able to forgive without those conditions. Jesus' words on the cross comes to my mind: "Father foirgive them, for they don't know what they are doing". Why would he say something like that if God can't forgive them (for they know not what they are doing)?

Also I suppose this is a thing which you can't explain to me in a way I find satisfactory, since you probably believed in God before you had these explanations in mind, and after you believe in God you are willing to believe in them even if they weren't crystal clear. I on the other hand don't believe in God and therefore have no other need for those explanations than curiosity.
 
In my opinion, it's one of the stories that provides undeniable proof that god is an evil enemy of humanity.

Eh, I see God as being uninvolved with our world. He wound us up and let us go, just to see what would happen.
 
In my opinion, it's one of the stories that provides undeniable proof that god is an evil enemy of humanity.
To me, its an indication that God in this story has human like characteristics. A real God would not feel the need to show Satan how pious his followers are. It is proof that the stories in the Bible are meant to be read as metaphore. Not as historical events. Whether God exists or not.
 
it's one of the more thrilling that does not contain rape, murder, genocide, incest or general mayhem.
What! Satan annihilated Job's family and farm animals!

Eh, I see God as being uninvolved with our world. He wound us up and let us go, just to see what would happen.
The flood story and the Egypt plague story show otherwise.
 
The flood story and the Egypt plague story show otherwise.

I bolded the most important part of your reply. I am referring to the real world and actual, substantiated, history. Looking at all the terrible things which have happened throughout history, I do not believe for one second that God cares about what happens to humans.

Whenever I hear a Christian talk about how God and Jesus loves us and how they will help us, even if we do not believe, I have to laugh. Am I to believe that God helps non-believers all the while allowing his faithful followers of the church to be murdered? For instance, the peaceful, devoted and God-loving Monks who lived near the coast in Europe were mercilessly slaughtered by the Vikings non-stop for hundreds of years. He sure didn't help those poor monks. If he won't even help his faithful followers, how is anyone to believe that He will assist them?

To explain this, a Priest says that "it's all part of God's plan. It was their time to die. He called them home." Really? Then that means every single death and unjust murder is planned out by God and carried out according to His wishes. Every single abortion was set out in advance and God purposely snuffed them out of existence because "it is all part of His plan." If it's not part of His plan, then He allows it to happen. Which is more evil?

He won't save us from terrible tragedies, nor do I believe he smites anyone. If He does exist, he is either:

a) Just sitting there, observing and being uninvolved with the whole process.

or b) He is malicious.

If it's a) then He might as well not exist.

If it's b) then he can F#@k off. I'm not going to worship some omnipotent being who derives pleasure from seeing us suffer.
 
Because before Jesus you were punished for your sins. Jesus was crucified so he could take your sins and the punishment they entailed onto himself and absolve you of said punishment.

So everyone before Jesus went to Hell?

But wait, Jesus isn't in Hell. What punishment did he undergo that we no longer have to?
 
So everyone before Jesus went to Hell?

But wait, Jesus isn't in Hell. What punishment did he undergo that we no longer have to?

Back before I became an atheist (and still went to church) some prayer I had to say all the time said Jesus did descend into hell, and presumably rounded up all the saints and deserving people (all those jews) in hell and brought them back to heaven with.

I think it was the apostles creed, I could be wrong...
 
@Lucy, you are spot on. Faith is the requirement we need to have when trusting in Jesus. But it is not blind faith, since if you read the Bible you will see many places where people put God to the test to see how he reacts and they have been rewarded for fully keeping faith in God. Job is a very good example, since he lost everything except his faith in Jesus, so after the end of trials he was rewarded for trusting in God. Having faith in God is the best thing that I have done. Faith is the only way we can be pleasing to God. Hebrews 10:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Since you have seen that it is faith that is the step you need to take, rare you willing to take that step?

Nope. I'm just curious about how those of you who do believe these things understand them. I'm not interested in believing them myself, thanks. :)

Also I suppose this is a thing which you can't explain to me in a way I find satisfactory, since you probably believed in God before you had these explanations in mind, and after you believe in God you are willing to believe in them even if they weren't crystal clear. I on the other hand don't believe in God and therefore have no other need for those explanations than curiosity.

This was worded well. :goodjob:
 
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