Three God Questions

[Smidlee]

It's a somewhat alien concept, that you can kill someone's children but then 'make up for it' by giving them more children.

I believe you missed Satan's complaint to God.
Also it stated that God gave Job twice as much as before so for all we know He could have raise Job's children then gave him 10 more.

 

[Berzerker]

What in the world is homoerotic about a sword being on fire?

Sounds more like an STD problem

 

[Berzerker]

Because that is the penalty God set forth i the Garden. When he told them of the consequence of there actions when he said, "when you eat of the the fruit, you shall surely die." That was the curse that God said would happen when they eat of the fruit.

And what did God say when discussing the matter with his mysterious colleagues? God told them, look at the humans, they've eaten from the tree (darnit ) now their eyes are open and they are like us, let us block their way to the tree of life so they may not live forever.

What did the serpent tell Adam and Eve? The serpent told them if they eat from the tree their eyes will be open, they will be like the gods (or like God). The serpent told the truth and God confirms this when explaining the situation to his friends.

The rationalization I've heard for this is that since Adam and Eve died several hundred years later, the curse only meant they would remain mortal. But its clear from the text they did not die upon eating the fruit (God didn't say anything about dying in 500 years) and that they remained mortal because God and his friends decided afterward to prevent them from partaking of the tree of life. They were mortal all along... If they ate from the tree of life and not knowledge, they'd live forever but we wouldn't be here.

God did not want people spreading in his Garden, the only "sin" we can attribute to the "apple" is procreation... They hid because they knew they were "naked", God eventually found out (Eve was pregnant) and got mad - and everyone but the talking snake blamed someone else. Btw, the serpent represents fertility throughout much of the world. Read up on the relationship between the 2 Sumerian gods Ea and Enlil and you will see where this part of Genesis comes from. It really goes a long way to explaining the relationship between God and the serpent. Btw, Jesus tells his buddies to be gentle like the dove and wise like the serpent.

Here is how PUal explained the situation.
Romans 5:12-21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This raises a problem, God is not good imo if we're being punished for what one man did. Seriously, all of humanity's suffering boils down to Adam eating the fruit?
Thats vindictive, or its just a recognition that we're sinners
and thats the way it is... All we can do is try to improve ourselves...

Also you cannot forgive someone if they do not ask for it.

Sure you can, its the first step in getting on with yer life. Then perhaps the perp will see yer act of forgiveness and have a change of heart.

How can you forgive someone if they still believe that they are doing the right thing when they are doing the wrong thing?

How do we know what they think? Forgiving them is a clue they screwed up in spite of what they thought at the time. Sure, some people, many, all, try to rationalize our wrongs but thats part of the thought process. I'd be surprised if many people reached the end of their lives still believing their sins were justified.

It is just not possible because the person receiving this "forgiveness" will just continue in his way and when yo are forgiven of something it shows that you have done something wrong.

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us... It doesn't say they gotta ask for it first.

There are two conditions on receiving forgiveness. The first one is confession, meaning that you are admitting that you are wrong. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The other condition is repentance, literally meaning to change one's mind. LUke 17:3-4 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
How can you possibly forgive someone who does not meet those conditions?

According to you they cant be forgiven because they didn't actually repent - change their mind/ways. Jesus was not saying forgiveness requires the confession of the wrong-doer, he was just saying if someone keeps screwing up but keeps asking for forgiveness, forgive them. Assume their sincerity... But when Jesus was on the cross he asked God to forgive his executioners and they had not asked him for forgiveness.

Lets say you are married and your wife commits adultery and you find out and she does not stop, are you going to forgive her, even though she knows she is guilty of doing wrong and yet she refuses to admit that she is wrong and will not even bather to change what she is doing?

According to you she can commit adultery 7 times a day as long as she keeps confessing

 

[Berzerker]

on a sidenote, I recently heard an explanation for the plagues of Egypt and how they led to the death of Egypt's first-born. I dont remember the entire sequence but it went like this: a red tide killed the fish and turned the river red. No fish = plenty of frog eggs. Eggs hatch and frogs invade the land (the river hadn't recovered), birds swoop in on em and take off dropping them in mid flight (frogs falling from the sky), lice and other nastier bugs
see a population boom, one poisons the crops and the first born dies because the first born gets the biggest meal among the kids.

God didn't murder Egypt's first-born, unless you attribute the plagues to God.

 

[Quiet Sound]

I believe you missed Satan's complaint to God.
Also it stated that God gave Job twice as much as before so for all we know He could have raise Job's children then gave him 10 more.

I wouldn't say that's how Job 42 makes it sound. But let's say you're right:

Job was tormented until he declared his wish to have never been born (Job 3:1&2, 10:19), his family was slaughtered (who probably did not find their deaths very pleasant), as were his servants (likewise), and animals (they suffer too, of course) but like murder victims brought back to life it's all okay and there's no need for hard feelings against the murderer.

Yeah, I don't think that idea helps except to make Jehovah look like a cruel child playing with dolls and finding amusement in his power over them.

 

[classical_hero]

And what did God say when discussing the matter with his mysterious colleagues? God told them, look at the humans, they've eaten from the tree (darnit ) now their eyes are open and they are like us, let us block their way to the tree of life so they may not live forever.

What did the serpent tell Adam and Eve? The serpent told them if they eat from the tree their eyes will be open, they will be like the gods (or like God). The serpent told the truth and God confirms this when explaining the situation to his friends.

You did not read my post properly because I already explained that if you lived for ever while suffering, how much would you enjoy that? There would be no hope of you ever being set free from the suffering. One thing he did not tell them that doing so would start a process of death and cause suffering. He just told them what they wanted to hear, which was not the truth, since the truth would have included the fact that they would cause suffering to come upon the whole universe as a result of their clear disobedience. It was plainly clear from what God said, see below, that suffering would happen as a result of eating from the fruit of the tree. IT could not have been a more simpler command to follow, but it is human nature for us to want what is forbidden to us.

The rationalization I've heard for this is that since Adam and Eve died several hundred years later, the curse only meant they would remain mortal. But its clear from the text they did not die upon eating the fruit (God didn't say anything about dying in 500 years) and that they remained mortal because God and his friends decided afterward to prevent them from partaking of the tree of life. They were mortal all along... If they ate from the tree of life and not knowledge, they'd live forever but we wouldn't be here.

Shows how much you know about the Bible. If you were to translate it literally the phrase "thou shalt surely die" would be translated as "thou shalt surely dying death". It does not make a good thing to say in English, so most translators made it flow easier in English to just say the first one. You should never, ever just rely on an English translation when trying to understand the Bible since it is written in three totally different languages, so some of the meaning will be lost in translation.

God did not want people spreading in his Garden, the only "sin" we can attribute to the "apple" is procreation... They hid because they knew they were "naked", God eventually found out (Eve was pregnant) and got mad - and everyone but the talking snake blamed someone else. Btw, the serpent represents fertility throughout much of the world. Read up on the relationship between the 2 Sumerian gods Ea and Enlil and you will see where this part of Genesis comes from. It really goes a long way to explaining the relationship between God and the serpent. Btw, Jesus tells his buddies to be gentle like the dove and wise like the serpent.

Well the very first command given to mankind was to be fruitful and multiply" I do not see how this is not a command for humans to have sex. I am not going to bother to look up a non biblical source since it is not part of my argument and it is a distortion of what happened. Also you are taking Jesus' saying way out of context, since it has nothing to do with what we are talking about and it is certainly not a reference to this situation, since there is no dove in the Garden of Eden story.

This raises a problem, God is not good imo if we're being punished for what one man did. Seriously, all of humanity's suffering boils down to Adam eating the fruit?
Thats vindictive, or its just a recognition that we're sinners
and thats the way it is... All we can do is try to improve ourselves...

You can cry all you want saying it is unfair, but the one who made the rules sets the punishment. Also since we are born from our parents we inherit things from them and that is the case with sin, we inherit it from our parents and it goes all the way back to the original mother and father. It is the doctrine called Original Sin, since we are a direct descendant of Adam. You can see so often that many people do the similar things that Adam did when he was found out by God, that they blame others for their problems and not themselves. It is impossible to improve ourselves since everyone is hopelessly lost. It is like the blind leading the bilnd, nothing good can come out of it, since we are hopelessly depraved and it is from our hearts that evil comes from. Every attempt to "better" ourselves and bring utopia on earth has always resulted in more suffering, which is the opposite of their intentions, but good intentions is not enough.

Sure you can, its the first step in getting on with yer life. Then perhaps the perp will see yer act of forgiveness and have a change of heart.

That is foolishly naive of you. I challenge you to try that some day and see what happens as a result of it and if you see real change. I bet when you have children you will come quickly to the realisation of what I have said.

How do we know what they think? Forgiving them is a clue they screwed up in spite of what they thought at the time. Sure, some people, many, all, try to rationalize our wrongs but thats part of the thought process. I'd be surprised if many people reached the end of their lives still believing their sins were justified.

You can tell what someone is thinking by the way they act. Inner thoughts will always comne out via there actions. They will be continuing to do what they believe is right, that is how you can tell. If you tell a robber that you forgive them for stealing frm you and they continue to steal from, what good have you done? None, since all you are doing is trying to clear your conscience, which is basically a selfish thing.

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us... It doesn't say they gotta ask for it first.

Well the Bible does not give everything about one subject in one small passage, often you need to read a variety of passages to get the whole story of what Jesus is saying. ALso if you look at Matthew 3 you see that John the Baptist is telling those to confess of their since and then came some Pharisees and he asked to show him fruits (or evidence) repentance. The two go together. You cannot have repentance if you do not confess that you are wrong, since you will not know what you are doing wrong and that you cannot change what you are doing, if you are still doing what you think is right, even if it is terribly long.

According to you they cant be forgiven because they didn't actually repent - change their mind/ways. Jesus was not saying forgiveness requires the confession of the wrong-doer, he was just saying if someone keeps screwing up but keeps asking for forgiveness, forgive them. Assume their sincerity... But when Jesus was on the cross he asked God to forgive his executioners and they had not asked him for forgiveness.

Well then how are they going to be asking for forgiveness? Every time that i know of when someone is asking for forgiveness is that they also tell that person that they did wrong, which is confession. The thing what Jesus said was special case due to the fact that it was about his death and that they had no idea the result of there actions would actually do,. since they were actually killing God, so that is a very special thing for a special occasion.

According to you she can commit adultery 7 times a day as long as she keeps confessing

Well if you had bothered to read it properly you would have seen that is was repentance is what Jesus is talking about. When someone does repent of their sins you will notice a change in their behaviour, otherwise they have not truly repented and only want to "clear" their conscience

About the Ten plagues, it is amazing how it is possible for them to be so specific to just one group of peoples in a land that large and how all the plagues missed affecting the Israelites, so I would like to hear how you can explain that one away. Also the last plague says nothing about disease and that it is a sudden upon the people meaning they had no warning. Also just so that you know, every fist born male was dedicated to a god of the Egyptians. IF you look at all the plagues they are a direct attack on the gods of Epgyt.

About Job, it is a story of someone who endured the sufferings that were caused upon him by Satan. Go allowed them to happen since h knew what kind of man Job was. 1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. The underlined part is important part showing that God know what you are capable of and he will not allow anything to happen to you that you cannot bear. Also if you have days that are just sunshine and no problems all you get is a desert and that is a barren wasteland asince nothing good comes from it. That is how we should be viewing our life that challenges are there to build character, even though they might not be good at the time, they do help you to grow ass a person. Romans 5:3-5 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
We are told to actually be delighted when things go bad, since this is a time when people shine. You hear of the most heroic acts in the time of the most darkest hour

 

[warpus]

You guys are questioning some of the more fundamental tenets of Christianity. These foundations are what the rest of the religion rests on...

Why did Jesus have to die for our sins? Well, he just did.. If he didn't have to, Christianity wouldn't exist. You accept it and move on, even if it doesn't make perfect sense.

It's like questioning the transporter in Star Trek. How does it work? It doesn't matter - it just does. The rest of the show depends on the transporter working, so you just accept that it does, do not question the physics behind it, and move on.

Sure, the inner workings of the transporter are discussed on message boards, just like Jesus dying for our sins gets discussed here, but nobody is going to come up with a formula on how to build one. What they are going to do is reference Star Trek canon in their explanations, much like quotes from the Bible have to be brought in to explain why Jesus had to die for our sins (and other questions raised here). This stuff only makes perfect sense in the context of Christianity.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You did not read my post properly because I already explained that if you lived for ever while suffering, how much would you enjoy that? There would be no hope of you ever being set free from the suffering. One thing he did not tell them that doing so would start a process of death and cause suffering. He just told them what they wanted to hear, which was not the truth, since the truth would have included the fact that they would cause suffering to come upon the whole universe as a result of their clear disobedience. It was plainly clear from what God said, see below, that suffering would happen as a result of eating from the fruit of the tree. IT could not have been a more simpler command to follow, but it is human nature for us to want what is forbidden to us.

You act as if there already was a curse on eating from the tree, but God is the one putting the curse on it because Adam and Eve disobeyed him. Who made paradise? Don't pretend that God merely is the judge who has to conduct the penalty of disobedience, he is the one that determined the penalty.

He, in all of his wisdom of creating us should know that the human is a curious imperfect being. In essence God punished Adam and Eve for the flaws he created in them.

analogy:

You go out of the house and leave your kids with a shiny gold box. Placed in the middle of the table. You say: don't open that box now or you'll be sorry. When upon returning you found they did open the box, you kick them out of the house to live on the streets. Cruel? Nope, they had it coming to them since you told them in advance there would be consequences right?

 

[warpus]

Ziggy, the Garden of Eden parable exists for that reason - to drive the point that humans are imperfect beings and will never live in paradise.

 

[LucyDuke]

You guys are questioning some of the more fundamental tenets of Christianity. These foundations are what the rest of the religion rests on...

Why did Jesus have to die for our sins? Well, he just did.. If he didn't have to, Christianity wouldn't exist. You accept it and move on, even if it doesn't make perfect sense.

It's like questioning the transporter in Star Trek. How does it work? It doesn't matter - it just does. The rest of the show depends on the transporter working, so you just accept that it does, do not question the physics behind it, and move on.

Sure, the inner workings of the transporter are discussed on message boards, just like Jesus dying for our sins gets discussed here, but nobody is going to come up with a formula on how to build one. What they are going to do is reference Star Trek canon in their explanations, much like quotes from the Bible have to be brought in to explain why Jesus had to die for our sins (and other questions raised here). This stuff only makes perfect sense in the context of Christianity.

There's nothing that should't be questioned. And most reasonable people, when it comes to things more relevant to life than Star Trek, don't like to "just accept that it does".

Anyway, I don't expect to understand completely. Just better.

 

[PeteAtoms]

You guys are questioning some of the more fundamental tenets of Christianity. These foundations are what the rest of the religion rests on...

Why did Jesus have to die for our sins? Well, he just did.. If he didn't have to, Christianity wouldn't exist. You accept it and move on, even if it doesn't make perfect sense.

It's like questioning the transporter in Star Trek. How does it work? It doesn't matter - it just does. The rest of the show depends on the transporter working, so you just accept that it does, do not question the physics behind it, and move on.

Sure, the inner workings of the transporter are discussed on message boards, just like Jesus dying for our sins gets discussed here, but nobody is going to come up with a formula on how to build one. What they are going to do is reference Star Trek canon in their explanations, much like quotes from the Bible have to be brought in to explain why Jesus had to die for our sins (and other questions raised here). This stuff only makes perfect sense in the context of Christianity.

The big difference is that no one in their right mind actually believes that the transporter is real. When they discuss the physics behind it, they still know that it is considered science-fiction. But in Xstianity, you have people who actually believe the story, which is probably only a metaphor.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ziggy, the Garden of Eden parable exists for that reason - to drive the point that humans are imperfect beings and will never live in paradise.

Kind of like a 2,000 year old reality show. Without the reality.

 

[warpus]

There's nothing that should't be questioned. And most reasonable people, when it comes to things more relevant to life than Star Trek, don't like to "just accept that it does".

Yeah, you're right about the first part.. That's the thing about religion though - there has to be a certain amount of faith involved - and that means just accepting certain things - especially the more fundamental things.. such as, "Jesus died for our sins", which most of the rest of the belief system in Christianity is based on.

And I wasn't trying to say that Star Trek is more relevant to life than Christianity.. I mean, for some people it is, for some people it isn't.. that's not the point.. Both "universes" have their own "canon" - that was my comparison.

Anyway, I don't expect to understand completely. Just better.

Yeah yeah I just don't think you'll get a satisfactory answer - because most of the answers are going to be based on scripture, which is all based on the concept that Jesus died for our sins anyway..

 

[PeteAtoms]

Yeah yeah I just don't think you'll get a satisfactory answer - because most of the answers are going to be based on scripture, which is all based on the concept that Jesus died for our sins anyway..

I don't want to come across as a jerk, but that sounds pretty circular in logic.

Jesus died for our sins (fundemental) -> answers from scripture (based on fundemental) -> Jesus died for our sins -> etc

 

[Phlegmak]

To commit a sin, does the actor need to know he's sinning? For example, if I thought it was ok to be lustful toward my own wife, did I sin? My religion teacher in high school said it's not a sin if you didn't know you were sinning.

Sooooo.....

If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of evil, then they couldn't possibly have known that they were sinning when they ate the apple from the tree. Therefore, ORIGINAL SIN DOESN'T EXIST!



I know I know, my argument won't sway any religious person. No logical argument ever does. Christianity and every other religion is just crazy anyway. It's simply impossible to apply logic to religion and most other absolutist beliefs.

 

[LucyDuke]

Yeah, you're right about the first part.. That's the thing about religion though - there has to be a certain amount of faith involved - and that means just accepting certain things - especially the more fundamental things.. such as, "Jesus died for our sins", which most of the rest of the belief system in Christianity is based on.

Yeah, that's why I don't dig most of 'em so much.

I don't want to come across as a jerk, but that sounds pretty circular in logic.

I think that was his point. (Or at least part of it.)

 

[Quiet Sound]

You should never, ever just rely on an English translation when trying to understand the Bible since it is written in three totally different languages, so some of the meaning will be lost in translation.

Man what is with this Jehovah? If it were me and I wanted to convey Some Really Important Stuff about an eternal afterlife I would have have broken it up into four languages. And they would have already been dead at the time of writing instead of soon after. It would have been like the plot of a Hollywood blockbuster! But I do have to give him credit for putting it in written form when almost the entire planet was illiterate, that really adds to the puzzle aspect.

 

[Smidlee]

Yeah, I don't think that idea helps except to make Jehovah look like a cruel child playing with dolls and finding amusement in his power over them.

If you pay attention to Satan compliant as well as Job admitted himself God had a hedge around Job that nothing bad could happen to Job. While we don't know Job's exact age the text seem to hint Job children were actually full grown adults. (If you happen to be bless to live over a 100 there is a good chance you will out live your children.)
Bad things happen to everyone that is except for Job which was Satan's point. Satan replied to God to stop the special treatment that He was given to Job and he will curse Him.
Job is a judgment against Satan himself since God also give him a high position yet he turn against God. This is something Job didn't do even after losing everything. There is a big difference between loving someone because what they do for you and unconditional loving someone even if they do nothing for you ( sometimes even turn against you). The thing is , Satan is right about most of us. He just happen to underestimate Job.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Oh the kids were adults? Kill away I say. Who cares about adults? And I see that giving Job's life over to Satan to play with becomes: "stop the special treatment". Job is a judgement against Satan, with an innocent Job being the butt of the joke.

This is a treat I suggest you and I go to a bar, look for a fight with a trucker, and then I'll beat you up to show him in how much trouble he is.

That'll teach him

In other words: what an incredible load of crock

 

[Berzerker]

You did not read my post properly because I already explained that if you lived for ever while suffering, how much would you enjoy that? There would be no hope of you ever being set free from the suffering. One thing he did not tell them that doing so would start a process of death and cause suffering. He just told them what they wanted to hear, which was not the truth, since the truth would have included the fact that they would cause suffering to come upon the whole universe as a result of their clear disobedience. It was plainly clear from what God said, see below, that suffering would happen as a result of eating from the fruit of the tree. IT could not have been a more simpler command to follow, but it is human nature for us to want what is forbidden to us.

Shows how much you know about the Bible. If you were to translate it literally the phrase "thou shalt surely die" would be translated as "thou shalt surely dying death". It does not make a good thing to say in English, so most translators made it flow easier in English to just say the first one. You should never, ever just rely on an English translation when trying to understand the Bible since it is written in three totally different languages, so some of the meaning will be lost in translation.

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." (rev std ver)

15 And Jehovah Elohim took Man, and put him into the garden of Eden, to till it and to guard it. 16 And Jehovah Elohim commanded Man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou shalt freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die. (Darby)

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die
(KJV)

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." (New Intl Ver)

Now, here's what Eve says to the Serpent about God's warning about the tree

2 And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat,

3 and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.' (Youngs Lit Trans)

Shall I go on? Nothing in the story confirms your interpretation. God says they will die, the Serpent says their eyes will be open and they will be like God. And God finds out they partook of the tree and says their eyes are open, they're like us... Then he says let us block their way to the tree of life and he booted them out, and Eve was pregnant. The warning was bogus...

Now you say the Serpent didn't tell them about the suffering coming their way. The Serpent didn't kick them out, God did that. Why are you blaming the Serpent for failing to tell them God would kick them out when God made that decision after the Serpent told them about the tree? The Serpent was told by Eve that the tree would kill them, she did not tell the Serpent about all the possible ways God would react. The Serpent told them the truth and God corroborates the Serpent. Now why do you suppose this story found its way into the Bible like that? Because it's of Sumerian origin, Abram was a Sumerian.

Well the very first command given to mankind was to be fruitful and multiply" I do not see how this is not a command for humans to have sex. I am not going to bother to look up a non biblical source since it is not part of my argument and it is a distortion of what happened.

The story takes place in God's Garden, not the world. Special rules apply there, true? Did God want people moving into his Garden? Did people fill that part of the world? Adam and Eve were a special creation, the Serpent ruined that by telling them about procreation. Adam and Eve didn't have parents, all the symbolism has sexual connotations. They knew they were naked, they wore figleaves, and God tells Eve she will bear children in pain. There is no other explanation offered as to why God didn't want them eating the apple, everything revolves around procreation.

Also you are taking Jesus' saying way out of context, since it has nothing to do with what we are talking about and it is certainly not a reference to this situation, since there is no dove in the Garden of Eden story.

The dove represents peace, why would it be in the Garden? I dont get the logic, Jesus refers to the Serpent as a source of wisdom and that dont bother people who think the Serpent is evil? Sure got me thinking...

You can cry all you want saying it is unfair, but the one who made the rules sets the punishment.

Thats meaningless...

Also since we are born from our parents we inherit things from them and that is the case with sin, we inherit it from our parents and it goes all the way back to the original mother and father. It is the doctrine called Original Sin, since we are a direct descendant of Adam.

But Adam and Eve weren't born sinners, they weren't even born. And yes, punishing billions of people for the actions of 1 or 2 people is immoral. If that is your God, well, God help ya

You can see so often that many people do the similar things that Adam did when he was found out by God, that they blame others for their problems and not themselves. It is impossible to improve ourselves since everyone is hopelessly lost. It is like the blind leading the bilnd, nothing good can come out of it, since we are hopelessly depraved and it is from our hearts that evil comes from. Every attempt to "better" ourselves and bring utopia on earth has always resulted in more suffering, which is the opposite of their intentions, but good intentions is not enough.

God blamed the Serpent, guess who was the only one not blaming anyone? The Serpent... And the Serpent told the truth, and Adam and Eve told the truth, the only one who didn't tell the truth was God.

That is foolishly naive of you. I challenge you to try that some day and see what happens as a result of it and if you see real change. I bet when you have children you will come quickly to the realisation of what I have said.

I've forgiven people who didn't ask for it. Was Jesus foolishly naive when he asked God to forgive his executioners when they had not asked for it? Remember Reginald Denny? He was the trucker who was beaten within inches of his life during the LA riots over the Rodney King incident. He went into court while the perps were being arraigned and said he forgave them and asked that they be released. Denny was smeared, attacked, insulted, etc by people like Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson just shook his head in disbelief but said Jesus does want us to forgive trespassers. Now, I dont have the life histories of those perps but if I was one and saw Denny do that, it sure would effect me.

You can tell what someone is thinking by the way they act. Inner thoughts will always comne out via there actions. They will be continuing to do what they believe is right, that is how you can tell. If you tell a robber that you forgive them for stealing frm you and they continue to steal from, what good have you done? None, since all you are doing is trying to clear your conscience, which is basically a selfish thing.

Why does the victim of robbery have to clear their conscience? If you forgive the robber, they know they screwed up (like they dont already know?). Yeah, some robbers will keep on robbing, so what? Some robbers wont, some will see the act of forgiveness and have a change of heart. Repentance aint always immediate...

Well the Bible does not give everything about one subject in one small passage, often you need to read a variety of passages to get the whole story of what Jesus is saying.

The Lord's prayer is incomplete? Did the Roman executioners of Jesus ask his forgiveness? No. But Jesus asked that they be forgiven. So you're wrong, Jesus told his followers to forgive trespassers and he did the same on the cross, nothing about waiting for trespassers to ask.

ALso if you look at Matthew 3 you see that John the Baptist is telling those to confess of their since and then came some Pharisees and he asked to show him fruits (or evidence) repentance. The two go together. You cannot have repentance if you do not confess that you are wrong, since you will not know what you are doing wrong and that you cannot change what you are doing, if you are still doing what you think is right, even if it is terribly long.

Repentance aint forgiveness. Yer rambling

Well then how are they going to be asking for forgiveness?

They dont have to, forgiveness doesn't depend on them.

Every time that i know of when someone is asking for forgiveness is that they also tell that person that they did wrong, which is confession. The thing what Jesus said was special case due to the fact that it was about his death and that they had no idea the result of there actions would actually do,. since they were actually killing God, so that is a very special thing for a special occasion.

A special case? Yer just making this stuff up as you go. They were executing a man (were they ignorant of that too?) in a horrible way. Is the Lord's Prayer also a special occasion? Jesus told his followers to forgive trespassers so that God will forgive them. No where in that prayer does it say we have to ask God for forgiveness or confess sins, nor does it say we have to wait for the trespassers to confess and ask for forgiveness. We forgive trespassers, God forgives us... Thats all...

Well if you had bothered to read it properly you would have seen that is was repentance is what Jesus is talking about. When someone does repent of their sins you will notice a change in their behaviour, otherwise they have not truly repented and only want to "clear" their conscience

I did read it properly, Jesus said forgive 7 times in one day. Does it sound like they changed their behavior after the first time they confessed and asked for forgiveness? Jesus is not talking about repentance, he's talking about forgiveness. You're surprisingly sloppy with the text...

About the Ten plagues, it is amazing how it is possible for them to be so specific to just one group of peoples in a land that large and how all the plagues missed affecting the Israelites, so I would like to hear how you can explain that one away.

Scientists have explained it away. But have it yer way, your God murdered Egypt's first born. And how do you know who was or wasn't effected? Hell, that may be why the Israelites took off and left Egypt. Ancient peoples all over the world faced with natural calamities attribute them to some angry god.

Also the last plague says nothing about disease and that it is a sudden upon the people meaning they had no warning. Also just so that you know, every fist born male was dedicated to a god of the Egyptians. IF you look at all the plagues they are a direct attack on the gods of Epgyt.

The last plague was a result of earlier plagues, an ecological disaster. Red tide, frogs, gnats/lice, flies, livestock diseased, boils, etc... Even the firstborn of animals died. Were they dedicated too