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Toku Deity Raging Barbs

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Pangaea, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    ALT+CLICK on tile

    (By the way, I got this error message in BAT as well, so it's not specific to BUFFY but rather a BULL/MF issue. BUG Team should have created unique shortcut combos for MF but somehow overlooked a delivered shortcut)

    Grouping always selects ships or air units first. I've found no way around that. It annoys me too. One thing I do is group the ships and move them out of the city then back.

    CLT+Click tile groups the same units which is sometimes helpful.

    ( I did provide the link to civ iv shortcuts above)
     
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  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    @krikav Keep in mind that you are fine using ALT+G for unit grouping. It's not harming anything. Just don't use it on Turn 0, as it will try to regen a map which is actually a delivered game function, and only is functional on Turn 0 (look at the in-game menu and the Regen Map button disappears after Turn 0)
     
  3. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    I use that function all the time too, but mostly using the UI, or with Ctrl+click on a unit, or Alt+click on a unit (in the list in the UI). When I hover over those options, I see that they're listed as Alt+G and Ctrl+G. So then there is a clash (of titans) between Buffy and the actual game.

    It's frustrating that it gets messed up with ships, tho, and I haven't found a way around that either. I think it's based on air/sea/land units, and land is probably not first in the list. I also use ungroup units a lot, because otherwise the will frequently frell up when I try to individually select units (the game loves to create new groups all the time, like when you double click on two units somewhere and move them together). Therefore I very often select all units, then ungroup everybody, before attacking when we are camped outside a city for example.
     
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  4. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Brief connected to last (T200) update.
    Spoiler :
    We DOWed, landed units as planned and hit next turn. A random cuir killed the pike with losing odds, injured most of the cannons. Some catas moved next to us, and more units into the city, including suddenly a bunch of cannons. The two knights attacked the stack of three lone catas. Killed two, but somehow one of the knights almost died. To a fe***** catapult. Ended up with 0.9 health. Bombed away culture and healed the units before assaulting the city next turn.

    Combined through all these encounters, the RNG clearly had other ideas for our venture. We got boned hard, and most of the stack died. He must have had a ton of units nearby, and did the usual AI upgrade for 2g or whatever puny amount they pay. Despite having so many cannons, 6 or 10 were killed, and many others too, with the rest surely dying the following turn.

    Meanwhile he had moved two frigates in the path of return for my ship stack, that had gone back towards our empire while this occurred, to pick up more units. Now they couldn't travel back, but were unpromoted in the ocean. We hit them, and everybody died. Had winning odds.

    At this point I sadly rage quit. It was too much. My ravaged ass couldn't take the beating any more. Then went to bed and fell asleep (presumably on my side).

    Thinking about it now, seeing as Deity isn't my normal level, I shouldn't have underestimated the Deity AI. Think I also was affected by seeing the pretty small stack @krikav landed with in his game, in the war against Isabella. Having read that update again, she didn't have Gunpowder at the time, tho, so no Cuirs/Conqs, no cannons, no really dangerous units, so it was probably safe there. Think I also really wanted to declare that turn, in T200, as it's such a nice landmark.

    However, it all was a bit stupid. We were only 4 turns from MilSci, and could have upgraded some Samurais to Grens. Or maybe it simply was the wrong target. I didn't see the reply by krikav until now, but yeah, maybe Joao would have been better. He's really far away tho, so I didn't even think about it to be honest.
    Spoiler :

    Happy Toku-shit1.jpg Happy Toku-shit2.jpg

    Have put so much time and effort into this game, tho, so think I'll cheat and have another go, by doing things differently. Wait a bit longer, get more boats so we can land a proper force right away, get Grens, maybe even look at other options (like Joao). Attacking when we did was probably premature, especially against what is likely the game's tech leader. I thought he was weak based on those diplo screen messages (which persisted), but maybe the others are simply absurdly strong. The top military is around 2 million units.... suppose that is Monty, who now has access to cannons, cuirs and grens. I don't envy his next target. He is plotting again.
     
  5. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Just to clarify, it is a BULL thing. Anything with BULL, has the shortcut ALT+G active...like BAT (it is there too). Appears the BUG team did not realize at they time the created that code, that they created a conflict. Ha..I've never used ALT-G for unit grouping before, but many times for map regen. (I'd thought it was a vanilla civ shortcut for regen..it is not)

    I see some possible options to remedy the conflict in BUFFY at least, but not sure if that will happen - requires new code and compiling. (If it is resolved, I'll communicate with Lemon as she may release in new BAT, but BULL itself will likely never be touched)

    Regardless, the error message is harmless although a tad annoying.

    (Yep, I do group/ungroup all the time before attacks now, especially to avoid group attack)
     
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  6. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Pangaea
    Spoiler :

    Maybe Capac was stronger than we thought.
    Your cannon numbers look excellent there, although the rest are abit few. But yeah, having two grenadiers as top defenders would have helped alot. It's not only that they are stronger, it's also that almost all AIs (except the suicidal maniacs) tend to not attack your stack if their odds are bad. That way you don't lose units outside, and can pick fights only in the cities where you can sort of shoot fish in a barrel.

    Have you seen @shakabrade s signature? Everything he learned he learned from reloading.
    It's probably impossible to get enough experience for how the AIs attack, how they move their units, where their sod comes from etc etc, without reloading when things fudge up alot.
    It's simply hard to build up the numbers of combat encounters you can draw upon intuitively in the future without that tool.

    Outside of BOTM, I reload for annoying micro mistakes I made, and if I screw up the timing enough and think that I have stuff to learn by going back, I do.
    But I really enjoy calling it a day, congratulating the AI for oursmarting me and moving on too.
    If I where in your situation, I would probably reload and get the stack composition and timing better. Some frigattes (or perhaps even a SoTL promoted flank->navigation to keep up with the galleons), and more stack defenders, preferably also a pair of grenadiers promoted against horses.

    Don't worry, I feel that the game is slipping away from me too, will update shortly!

     
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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T237 :


    I was moving my navy into position for the navy division which I was planning on sniping Boudicas coastal cities with when I see something that makes me scrap those ambitious plans right away. You building a well Boudi...?
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    Somehow, she has managed to find a path up to combution before getting all those other things.
    I thought Capac would give me the rest of AL for MT by now, but my stack of cash is too small it seems. So I sell my map for some chump change, then I beg 40-50g from Joao, Capac and Churchil. The beg against Churchil fails which was odd, but I did meet him quite late.
    But with that extra, I get AL for MT with 1800g added.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    Things are not looking bright for Isabella.
    The only possible path I could figure out forward was by first giving MT to Churchil to get him out of the war, so that he wouldn't have Isabella as W/E anymore. Then I could gift Bella that spearhead city which didn't pan out as I thought (I'm nowhere near getting the pigs, and I have NO food tiles to get to pop2, so can't use it for a trap.

    But... The reason I wanted her in the game in the first place is because the others hate her, and studying the diplo chart abit, the only reason anyone dislike her is just because of heathen religion, and if she ends up with another city she will likely get a majority religion anyway... So, cute plan but doesn't work. Bye bye Isabella!
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    Oh yeah Monty, you can for sure have my money! We don't want this to escalate to another of those misunderstandings again!
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG



    I forgot to start Factories last turn, so I do that now.
    I get railroad from Joao here, and I did get combustion next turn from Churchil.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    I get some land for free! Boudica has stopped plotting after Isabella got destroyed.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    The "useless" spearhead city.
    Since I didn't think about it, I don't even have a 1F tile anywhere, so it's impossible to grow to pop2. And as such if boudi attacks this city it's auto-razed.
    If not, I could park my stack outside of this city and place some bait inside it, and hopefully she would marsch right into the city where I could shoot down her stack. But now.. that plan doesn't work.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    And Boudi has started plotting, so I send out the rifles nearby to check her out.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    This island where already quite settled, but i get one good city.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    Found Boudis stack! I can't believe she has only 6/10 buildunit prob. I always see her with absurd number of units en par with Monty or Ragnar.
    Here I start to move my stack toward Montys city. I had an idea of DoWing Boudi and then bribing Monty in. She would take that city and I could attack her from outside.
    She is starting her fourth line of units, and I'm not quite done with my second line. But I think I would get her that way.
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG
     
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  8. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Untraditional and would still take a while, but you can windmill the gold.

    Thank you for the support above :) I always feel like the game is kinda ruined or valueless (probably not the right terms) when I replay things, especially several turns like I would have to do here, but I will start up the game again and try. Maybe I can get into it again. Actually thought about re-starting the map, but then I need a week to get to where I am now :crazyeye:
     
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  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T245 :

    No more screenshots from yesterday. Things got so booring that I almost fell asleep while at the keyboard.

    Monty spoiled my deceptive plan by gifting Zaragosa away a turn after I made the plan.
    I ran full culture in Matsuyama for a few turns, seeing if I could hold that hill next to Zaragosa, but that was futile. I suspected she would move into that city if I was the target.
    I'm glad I have a defensive pact with capac,because then I'll get at least some help with her navy if she attacks.
    I probably want to sign with Churchil too, but that could backfire if it's him she is after.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    I lost track of her stack (easy with railroads) and almost got panic for a while, but then I found it in Gergovia. Starting to calm down abit now. If she places it here she is likely building alot of transports and plan to hit Churchil.
    8 turns ago, rifles where muskets and cavallery where knights...
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    And in a few more turns, I guess they will all be infantry too.
    I'm self-teching physics now, planning to go for artillery which I could possibly get some trades out of.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    My stack doesn't look as impressive as Boudicas.
    I have been building factories for some time though. I'm thinking that I probably have to draft a bunch of infantry.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG


    I have again postponed the GA. What I should have done that right away and gone into 5 turns of slavery+OR, to get factories up quick.
    But right now, factories are almost up. On the home island only Capital and Yokohama and the island is lacking factory plans. Capital should get one eventually, but it needs to build some more missionaries first.
    Started some university build, and overall some infrastructure plans in Isabellas old cities which I regret. If I go to war with boudica, I will have big troubles defending all those cities with that very long front.
    Also, I'm short on workers. Alot of 3F farms that should be 2F4H workshops by now. Kagoshima is first out of the gate with a shale-plant and will get a bunch out now.
    I'm also worried about Monty. Our peace treaty has been off for a few turns now. I was hoping that he would start plotting while we where in treaty but he didn't.
    My tech and cash is not enough to bribe him against someone either.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


     

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  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Windmilling the gold isn't something I even thought of! Had I done that right away it might have been worth it.
    Not at all sure now though. The city is in and out of revolt all the time.

    Well... I agree to a large extent to that ruination.
    I draw alot of enjoyment from this game by endulding in fantasy and give the AIs life, and when I reload encounters with them I feel like I'm cheating and I'm depriving myself of that enjoyment.
    Thats also a reason I don't like playing on very low difficulties. The foes I have learned to fear and respect are suddenly lobotomized. :|

    But when it's for learning purposes I generally have less problems with it. Did that a truckload to get things like GMerchant and HA-whipping timings right when I practiced that.
    It's tougher to get the motivation to slug through the incredibly annoying endgame micro if I have "broken the spell" by this maneouver though.
    (Endgame micro is hard enough to get enough motivation for in the most engaging of games.)

    Reloading to win is a futile venture in it's own right too. If you reload to stop Hammy from launching his spaceship, then all of the sudden Gandhi vassals to Alex.. Or Gilga is starting to push his third city. And all of the sudden you are in a hellscape of intertwining timelines and all fun is gone and everything is just frustration and tedious work.
     
  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T248 :

    This is another upgrade thats really nice. Not that expensive either and my darn that machinegun gets a brutal defender.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    Universial suffrage when Police state is available? I find it weird that the AIs avoid their favourite civic. Equally baffling when Wang abandons caste system in favour of enmancipation in the lategame. Would be so much more fun if they stubbornly held onto their favourite, with Isabella defying UN votes for free religion etc. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    Did run that GA now, a brief jump into rep too, will want to go back to monarchy or go into police state if I mangae to get fascism in time after though.
    Even burocracy abit now! OR to get factoreis and coal plants up faster.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    Techrate jumps alot, I should get artillery somewhat soon, then I just need 10 more turns or so to prepare an attack on Boudica. I'm checking her doomstack every turn and it stays stationary in that port city close to Churchill. Things are looking bright!
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    Noo! Wait?! Whaaaat? Argh!
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Well.. That certainly throws a gigantic spanner in my works. I was ill prepared for this.
    Have to stop and think and replan alot now.
    Certainly I'll jump into nationhood as soon as I can, which is a few turns away unfortunatly. Probably have to go 0% slider to upgrade some guys too. With Railroad her doomstack will be here next turn or the second next at the latest.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    If Only she would have given some indication... Like moving her doomstack. I would have been able to sign a pact with churchil too. Now I only have Capac for company.
    They are both willing to get bribed in, but I can't afford it yet it seems.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    Perhaps try get to Artillery as soon as I can, and give them that to join up?
    On the other hand... If I get artillery, I certainly want to trade it for some goodies. Flight is something I always want to trade for, as it lacks pre-reqs and is extremly expensive to tech.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG
     

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  12. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Yes, that's exactly it!

    I tried.
    Spoiler :
    Finished MilSci and upgraded a few CR1 guys to Grenadiers, plus a stack defender. Then set sails for Joao instead. He should be much weaker. Besides, while this delay happened, HC got Railroads. I had landed a knight there to scout him out better as well. Not a ton of units actually, but 10-ish cannons and 10-ish Cuirs combined here and there, so he must have thrown all he had against me earlier. But ofc, instantly I also now spot MGs in a few cities, so that war was doomed.

    Thought I took a picture of the landing force, but apparently not. 9-10 galleons with units, so the first city was easily taken. Then he unfortunately retook it with a bunch of knights and catapults and suchlike. I'm in the process of retaking it. Okay, yet another 90% cannon loss, and then two 99% losses as well. I'm sure we could still power through and retake the city, he doesn't have much it seems. Maybe that war against Monty drained him something fierce and he hasn't properly rebuilt in the meantime -- but I just can't get back into the save. It already feels tainted, and all these dumbass RNG losses is very hard to take on the chin. The first war is always crucial, and when they happen there, it hurts a lot more, and can be fatal. So in the bin it goes. Sorry. It was fun for a while, but it's simply different now, and I can't get back into it.


     
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  13. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Started over, and it looks like I may finally be healed of this blasted game again. More than a little fed up of losing high 90-s percent fights over and over and over again.

    Good luck with your game, krikav.
     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    It just gets too many screenshots when in heated combat.
    Just made a rar with the whole bunch up to T259 so the intrested can sift through!

    Highlights:
    Spoiler :


    Was keeping an eye out after that monsterstack I saw in the port city.
    Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG

    I did manage to kill a dozen cannons she recklessly placed without defence, and I have killed some units here and there. I'm starting to think that I killed off most of the units now, and I decide it's time to start pushing toward Santiago.
    Can't afford to be too passive when fighting them, they just build faster than you can kill.
    Civ4ScreenShot0027.JPG

    And THEN it shows up. Holy moly Boudica! Just Wow!
    I evacuate the city, and I raze Santiago. Then I suicide a cannon a turn to keep her inside Seville and heal. But She marshes onwards up to Shimonoseki rather quickly.
    I then attack the tiny garisson in Saville and get it back. Very happy to come under the protective shield of culture again.
    Civ4ScreenShot0030.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0046.JPG

    Had some minor fights on that hill, mostly softening up rifles with a suicide cannon or two, then mopping them up with hungry grenadiers.
    Now I have finally assembled and healed enough troops, and gotten enough artillery in place that I might stand a chance next turn!
    Civ4ScreenShot0050.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0052.JPG

    The artillery is blazing! Her stack is extremly sturdy though. Odds never jump up to the 90-range, and alot of those wins where at 50% odds!
    Civ4ScreenShot0053.JPG
    After attacking with the best I got, I'm out of winning odds. Dont' dare push onwards this turn. Cavallery gets 60%. I have some comando infantry that could still win, but I don't dare risk them either.
    Civ4ScreenShot0054.JPG

    OH, and don't ask me how my empire is doing! I'm preoccupied with warfare!
    I did build some theatres, since the Moron Monty decided to hold a vote about making enviromentalism mandatory.

     

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  15. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Well curse my soul, I had to dive in there again. T70
    Spoiler :
    Rough start again, and this time I skipped Mining and went directly Agri->Hunting->Archery. Think it helped a little, but my god, they sure do keep coming, don't they?

    Unfortunately a good archer got surprised on flatland by a spear, and despite some first-strike promos, he got pawned. Next up is a promoted and unhurt spear. Thankfully another archer manage to kill him in the forest. Way later, a warrior is trying to escape another spear (why so many so early?!?), move out of the forest, spear moves away, he moves back into the forest, and gets surprised by yet another spear. No fortification, but he is lucky and wins the fight.

    Happy Toku-T64 lucky warrior.jpg

    Hectic combat again. PH capital helps, especially when an archer guards it.

    Happy Toku-T70 stats.jpg

    Entire island should be fogbusted now, if I remember the north correctly, unless some bastard is already in a dark tile. Fourth city this turn kinda broke us, but capital was unhappy at size 6, so it made sense to whip a guy. Pottery this turn too, so am getting up some cottages finally. Slow start on such brutal settings.

    Happy Toku-T70 empire.jpg

    Wonder how the religions shake out this time. Sure hope Capac doesn't hog 6, but I won't be surprised if he got one of Hindu/Buddhism + Judaism.

    One thing I'd like to improve on is to get a third GS, since it took such a long time to get Optics anyway, and probably use him for an Academy. It's a decent enough Buro spot, so should be useful for such a long game (if we are lucky and play our cards right). Apart from that, I'm not sure what else I can do to improve my chances? I kinda liked the HR warrior route, as it was possible to grow the cities a bit, and the central pig spot became pretty good last time, so think it makes sense to settle it.

    From what I recall, krikav went with only four spots until Optics? Do people reckon that was the stronger route?

    Went Sailing pretty early last time, possible after Writing, since we have so much seafood here. But ofc, it turned out to be tricky to get up lighthouses that early, because granaries are more important, and we only have a lousy happycap of 4.

    Are you having another go @Izuul? Or somebody else, like @Seraiel or @Fippy? Or @Lain?


    @krikav
    Spoiler :
    I'm surprised and impressed at how well you are doing against that colossal stack of Isabella's. It looked very fearsome, especially when you got caught with your pants down. Really well done so far. We're all rooting for you. Somebody must beat this map :D
     
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  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Pangea
    Spoiler :

    I had only 4 cities pre-optics. I think a fifth one would have delayed me too much, but if I would have settled it earlier perhaps...? Iirc I had a hard time pushing back against the barbs, and my strategy with keeping 4 units as a wall was perhaps costly too?

    Something that I would do if I replayed though, would be to settle the island city earlier. Imagine if that city was up to speed 20-30 turns earlier how good it could be in regards to GPGeneration with natepic!


    Regarding my game... I was just lucky that she went for Seville, her doomstack could have just deleted all my units if she had the wits to do that. But she went for the city and I managed to dance around her and eventually trap her. Warfare when it's at it's finest! :D

    Now, I'm up at T274 and I'm pushing back against Boudica. Once they lose their main stack, they get kind of dissoriented untill they can rebuild.
    But I figure the only thing that prevents Capac from winning by culture (because I'm in no position to stop him, kind of preoccupied! :D ) is because he was in a defensive pact and got drawn into the war.
    Also, Church who I thought was plotting against Monty suprised me and declared on Capac! A few turns after that Monty DoWs Churchill, so it's a nice world war going on.


    Also, i have gotten a new favourite promotion. :D
    A group of comandos is camping out in that hilled-forested-fort, and running out and catching workers. Then I delete them to keep her from taking them back.
    Probably taken 10 of them so far now.
    And sometimes, there is a lone cannon wandering around that these guys get 99% or so odds against. Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG

     
  17. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    @Pangaea

    I've mostly played around with the opening.

    It's interesting that when i place my warrior back in the city to fortify (which i would absolutely do if going worker first), two archers always pop up on T15 on the exact same tiles and take the exact same path to my city. That path takes the southern archer right over the FPH which makes my 2nd warrior finish in 4T rather than 3T which can very easily cause you to die by literally 1H.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  18. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I would say lighthouses are totally useless without :)-res.

    I might try the start now, though I have no big illusions of success.
     
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  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T285 :


    This was a nice city!
    Civ4ScreenShot0028.JPG

    Monty won the race to vassal though. And right away I kindly ask for a coin, so that he might start to plot against Capac and not against me.
    Civ4ScreenShot0030.JPG

    Had to take yet a few more cities to get her willing to cap though, but when she did... Whoa what a peace treaty I got! I just put the most outrageous I could think of on the negotiation table, as I usually do. Then I usually pick stuff away untill I get something I want. But she just said "Yes! Good deal!"
    Biology, some cash, 13gpt and 3 cities, two which are fully built up.
    Civ4ScreenShot0039.JPG


    But I guess I have built up quite alot of war success by now.
    Civ4ScreenShot0040.JPG


    Losses, I see that fishing boats doesn't count, because it would for sure top the list by now... Grrrr!
    Civ4ScreenShot0041.JPG


    The standing army.
    Civ4ScreenShot0042.JPG

    It seems I still got plenty of time to catch Mr Capac too! The poor guy have been at war for the entire time too. Only got peace once Churchil became Montys vassal.
    He chickend out from the war against boudica a long time ago, and that was when the nightmare with Boudicas invincible destroyers started.
    Civ4ScreenShot0043.JPG


    They are not pushing future tech yet either.
    Civ4ScreenShot0044.JPG


    I attached the save from when she was willing to cap.


     

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  20. drewisfat

    drewisfat King

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    630
    You're doing it krikav :goodjob:
    Low sea level scares the beejesus outta me. I would still give the map a try though, but I'm preoccupied with another obsessive endless grind.
     

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