[RD] Trans Erasure

[emzie]

Maybe where you live - here they are treated just like everybody else, one is even in the current cabinet, no one cares, it is not even mentioned on her wiki-page, it is really not a defining quality,

the US is a bit backwards in that regard...

How sure are you about this? Do you really think you have a good understanding of what it's like to be trans in Belgium?

I don't know, we're nearly 100 posts in and I've yet to see a position which supports what the TC is saying. I guess everything is just happening in the ether and I don't get it.

Change "trans genocide" to "trans erasure" and we lose all the linguistic baggage and yet we're still describing the same thing. I will quote myself from the original thread:

All I can say is that if this were the law in Ontario, I would have killed myself by now, either directly or through addiction.

Moderator Action: Thread split from LGBT News

@Cloud_Strife sparked a good conversation that deserves its own thread. What exactly does it mean to restrict or deny potentially life-saving care to a minority group?

 

[Hygro]

I think we're being primed for the next "push" into outward genodice of not just trans people, but the greater lgbtq+ community, and it's the same tactics used as in the past; "genuine concerns about the safety of women and children" being one of the biggest dogwhistles used.

I think it will continue to echo back to this, less and less. It seems like the current strategy is to, for example, include the gay men as "one of us, not like trans" and I think that's more indicative of the trend. The focus will isolate on to the least accepted category and generally the racists/sexists/homophobes/etc will cede ground. There will be rightwing media pushes and demogogues who will reinflame old fights — like public and base level racism coming back into discourse the past few years — but the trend is less and less overall.

As such I am overall predicting the main push will be to continue to recruit some of the L, G, and Bs to see the Ts as a different category not worthy of the same rights and respect.

I am predicting short run pushes when the rightwing gets really fascy, similar to right now, to expand to all previously fought over categories of people. But absent a complete loss of electoral power, I don't see the genocidal-to-trans people push re-expanding to a substantively genocidal to all lgbtq+ persons.

 

[Perfection]

Change "trans genocide" to "trans erasure" and we lose all the linguistic baggage and yet we're still describing the same thing. I will quote myself from the original thread:

I think this is a very solid descriptor.

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

How sure are you about this? Do you really think you have a good understanding of what it's like to be trans in Belgium?



Change "trans genocide" to "trans erasure" and we lose all the linguistic baggage and yet we're still describing the same thing. I will quote myself from the original thread:

[RD] - LGBTQ news

This is a side note but it never ceases to spin out my tiny mind how North America has thousands of tiny little fully separate police forces just doing their own thing, independent of each other like little statelets. It's like the Holy Roman Empire, but for the kids who bullied you in high...

forums.civfanatics.com

ok, to go off of the original thread:
- It would be bad for trans people to be denied payment for treatments (hormones, etc.) they need to avoid possible suicidal thoughts or worse.
- By that same token, Medicaid operates under a finite supply of funding which is subject to a policy discussion about what is and what isn't important to cover in people's health care.
- It's going to be inevitable that some individuals feel as though such a system is cheating them when they don't get what they want. Or, as seen here, feel as though it's singling them out for destruction.

I don't claim to have a good solution, other than: trans individuals (or, really, any such group) who feel as though they aren't being covered ought to form their own health insurance cooperatives of some sort, but I don't pretend to have a finance degree to know how hard that would be to implement...

 

[IglooDame]

[RD] - LGBTQ news

This is a side note but it never ceases to spin out my tiny mind how North America has thousands of tiny little fully separate police forces just doing their own thing, independent of each other like little statelets. It's like the Holy Roman Empire, but for the kids who bullied you in high...

forums.civfanatics.com

ok, to go off of the original thread:
- It would be bad for trans people to be denied payment for treatments (hormones, etc.) they need to avoid possible suicidal thoughts or worse.
- By that same token, Medicaid operates under a finite supply of funding which is subject to a policy discussion about what is and what isn't important to cover in people's health care.
- It's going to be inevitable that some individuals feel as though such a system is cheating them when they don't get what they want. Or, as seen here, feel as though it's singling them out for destruction.

I don't claim to have a good solution, other than: trans individuals (or, really, any such group) who feel as though they aren't being covered ought to form their own health insurance cooperatives of some sort, but I don't pretend to have a finance degree to know how hard that would be to implement...

"Diabetics who feel as though they aren't being covered ought to form their own health insurance cooperatives of some sort..."
"Bipolar folks who feel as though they aren't being covered ought to form their own health insurance cooperatives of some sort..."
"People with kidney disease who feel as though they aren't being covered ought to form their own health insurance cooperatives of some sort..."

Sidenote, "who feel as though"? If the state government has decided that transgender care is not a part of Medicaid, there's no "feelings" involved.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I guess i get tired of cis people deciding that the existence of trans people is something that's "up for debate", even from those that say they're not hostile it still seems to be...

Have I *ever* displayed hostility toward the trans members here? I'll admit to being surprised when someone states their new name and explains their situation, since I've been here long enough to know them by one identity and suddenly they tell everyone they have another that they really had all along but not publicly.

It's an adjustment in perception that some are unwilling to even try to make, and others have no problem at all. For me, I just want to know how you want me to address you and refer to you so I don't get it wrong - because I don't want to be disrespectful.

It's worth noting since I mentioned Indigenous genocides above, that Canada, and presumably other settler colonial states who at the time were intent on destroying Indigenous peoples by slow forcible assimilationist means, specifically campaigned to prevent the explicit incision of cultural genocide in the text.

A small bit of progress has been made. Pope Francis finally got off his backside and came to Canada to apologize (took years of asking and the Vatican refusing). He finally - though not on Canadian soil - acknowledged that what happened (continues to happen) is cultural genocide. Indigenous women are still dying in hospitals due to racism on the part of non-indigenous health care workers.

 

[Perfection]

I don't claim to have a good solution, other than: trans individuals (or, really, any such group) who feel as though they aren't being covered ought to form their own health insurance cooperatives of some sort, but I don't pretend to have a finance degree to know how hard that would be to implement...

The solution is to get the health system to do its job and cover the medical needs of society.

Some bandaids may work for some people, but actually covering trans healthcare isn't actually that hard. The only reason it isn't is because of ignorance and bigotry.

 

[Birdjaguar]

"Tribal like" affiliation groups often encourage and enjoy rivalry and conflict with similar but not the same affiliation groups. It is what we do.

• Sports teams
• Political parties
• men vs women
• Churches within a religion
• Religions
• Schools and Universities
• Nationality
• Fraternities
• Gays and straights
• Racial groups
• Ethnic groups
• Social groups
• Etc.

When issues raise the emotional level such that folks feel culturally or socially threatened, the rivalry can get serious enough to include danger. Many social and cultural conservatives feel sufficiently threatened by the idea of "trans" that they think that to preserve their way of life, they must act. We have seen this before many times and it can get very ugly. Trans people are just the newest target. Modern culture has moved the issue from local communities to more national and international stages. When one such group has significantly more power than its rival in serious matters, then the weaker have reason to be afraid and the more powerful will likely abuse their power. Allies are important to shift the balance of power around and it usually takes a third party to put an end to the worst of the offenses.

There are few quick fixes.

The Stonewall uprising happened in 1969 in NYC; where are we now?

 

[sophie]

1) "Go make your own insurance pools" is silly for the same reasons that necessitated the individual mandate under Obamacare: creating a specialized health pool comprised singularly of people who will all *universally* be drawing continuously creates an imbalance that would either necessitate premiums and deductibles so laughably high as to be less than worthless, or else an insolvent fund which collapses immediately. Insurance pools rely on a population of healthy individuals who put in more than they take out to subsidize the individuals who take out more than they are asked to put in.
2) The trans population as a whole is extremely poor and marginalized. 1/3 of trans people in this country live below the poverty line ($12,800/yr for an individual). So, start a pool: who? With what money?
3)We already have a "specialized trans health insurance," it's called cashapp. It's by and large not a very effective health delivery system for reasons 1) and 2).

4) Creating a private insurance pool doesn't make much of a difference when a state uses political power to illegalize prescribing, performing, or consenting to the procedures at all.

 

[Snowygerry]

How sure are you about this? Do you really think you have a good understanding of what it's like to be trans in Belgium? [....]

No of course not, never did I claim such a thing, my knowledge on the subject is anecdotal at best,

if you check, my first post was very modest - I complimented OP, read the article and lifted a small part of it for further discussion.

I do know most of the legal objections are removed here - so it is at least possible to be a successful trans person in Belgium, and there are examples of that I know of.

That's all

 

[sophie]

G.O.P. State Lawmakers Push a Growing Wave of Anti-Transgender Bills

Four states could ban transition care into young adulthood. Lawmakers in several others want to restrict drag shows in ways that could affect transgender performers broadly. It’s part of a long-term plan.

www.nytimes.com

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

I must say I'm a little curious as to why discussions about drag performances ought to be elevated alongside people with actual gender dysphoria and all the medical baggage that goes with it.
I mean, for all the problems the latter has, there is still a need for the New York Times to essentially put men doing "blackface" of women in that same corner. Are these really desirable allies at this point in time? Just because quite a few Republicans don't like both?

 

[Hygro]

I must say I'm a little curious as to why discussions about drag performances ought to be elevated alongside people with actual gender dysphoria and all the medical baggage that goes with it.
I mean, for all the problems the latter has, there is still a need for the New York Times to essentially put men doing "blackface" of women in that same corner. Are these really desirable allies at this point in time? Just because quite a few Republicans don't like both?

This reminds me of that guy on reddit who told me to read an econ book when I schooled him gently.
Then told me my econ degree was just a piece of paper and to get marketable skills instead.
Then told me it isn't noteworthy to have marketable skills when he found out I'm a programmer, and called me an NPC
I forget the entire chain but ended with "you'll never turn me into a liberal!"

It's like, what's your argument and convictions, and why are you probing for hoped-for weaknesses instead?

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

It's like, what's your argument and convictions, and why are you probing for hoped-for weaknesses instead?

my argument [if it needs to be that crystal clear] at least in post #112 is that drag is no different than blackface. and people who want both gone should be thanked.

 

[Hygro]

I don't for a second believe you believe that.

 

[sophie]

Isn't it funny how that argument ("drag constitutes blackface against women") is also one used to denounce trans women and justify restrictions on our access to single-sex spaces.

It's also just plain wrong, insulting, and betrays a profound lack of familiarity with the legacies and historical contexts of both drag AND blackface, but I don't really think there's anything I can say or articles I can reference that's going to change your mind on this.

 

[Arwon]

As we are talking about genocide, should the mass killings of Hutus by the Rwandan Patriotic Front be considered genocide?
Following the genocide against the Tutsi by the Hutu, it is estimated forces under the control of the RPF were directly responsible for the death of 5 to 10 thousand Hutus a month between April and August 1994. This does not include the killing of at least 5,000 Hutu civilians and disarmed adults at the Kibeho refugee camp by RPF forces in 1995, an act witnessed by Australian peacekeepers.
Despite the clear evidence of mass killings to achieve a political purpose by the RPF, the scholarly consensus, even by scholars quite hostile to the RPF like Gerard Prunier and Michaela Wrong, is that while the killings constitute a war crime and crime against humanity, it does not constitute genocide.

If the killing of tens of thousands of Hutu civilians by the RPF does not constitute genocide, why should the policies and laws described in this thread, however repulsive and bigoted, constitute genocide?

Without having any familiarity with the scholarship here, it's quite hard to say why they've reached that conclusion but my bet would be that they don't think the eliminationist intent was there? I dunno, maybe you should tell us the answer here, presumably having read it.

 

[Hygro]

might I be provided with an example? that would be a good place to start a discussion

Like I literally thought you were asking for an example for the expected upon strategy of the future of the rightwing trans-erasure movement was to expand to all LGBT, since that was what made the thread a v2. I too would as for an example, in the interest of predicting the genocidest's next move and stopping it.

But no you're just flinging poo trying to see what sticks.

 

[IglooDame]

I must say I'm a little curious as to why discussions about drag performances ought to be elevated alongside people with actual gender dysphoria and all the medical baggage that goes with it.
I mean, for all the problems the latter has, there is still a need for the New York Times to essentially put men doing "blackface" of women in that same corner. Are these really desirable allies at this point in time? Just because quite a few Republicans don't like both?

Aside from everything others have said, also something about "First they came for the drag artists..."

And the New York Times is hardly any sort of beacon to the LGBTQ+ community lately.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Out of interest what do people think about Oli London?

'I’m Korean, people need to accept that': Oli London defends ‘transracial’ identity against Black woman

London, 31, who underwent multiple surgeries to look like BTS member Jimin, most recently identified as a Korean woman using “they/them” pronouns. In the May 2 episode of the Channel 4 series, London sat down with a Black woman, who was not named in the video, to discuss whether someone can...

www.yahoo.com

"London, 31, who underwent multiple surgeries to look like BTS member Jimin, most recently identified as a Korean woman using “they/them” pronouns.

In the May 2 episode of the Channel 4 series, London sat down with a Black woman, who was not named in the video, to discuss whether someone can identify as “transracial.”

“I identify as Korean,” London said. “I used to live in Korea. I was living there for one year. I love the culture, the history, the people. I put myself through a lot of pain, a lot of surgical procedures to have more of a Korean aesthetic. I spent a lot of time learning the language, learning how to cook Korean food.”

London said “people didn’t really get it” when they came out, but they hope to be more accepted over time.

On the other side of the table, the woman opened her response by immediately rejecting the idea of transracialism.

“Transracial does not exist, and I think it’s very, very harmful to push the narrative that it is possible to switch races,” she said.

“I can’t sit up here and suddenly say ‘Oh, I’m a white woman. And if you as a white person says, ‘Oh, I can be Black or I can be Korean,’ and I can’t swap or benefit from the privilege that you benefit from, then it’s clearly not an equal exchange. Because whiteness in this country has been set up in a way. How I interact with the police, how I interact with the medical system can result in me dying.”"