[RD] Trans Erasure

[IglooDame]

Out of interest what do people think about Oli London?

'I’m Korean, people need to accept that': Oli London defends ‘transracial’ identity against Black woman

London, 31, who underwent multiple surgeries to look like BTS member Jimin, most recently identified as a Korean woman using “they/them” pronouns. In the May 2 episode of the Channel 4 series, London sat down with a Black woman, who was not named in the video, to discuss whether someone can...

www.yahoo.com

"London, 31, who underwent multiple surgeries to look like BTS member Jimin, most recently identified as a Korean woman using “they/them” pronouns.

In the May 2 episode of the Channel 4 series, London sat down with a Black woman, who was not named in the video, to discuss whether someone can identify as “transracial.”

“I identify as Korean,” London said. “I used to live in Korea. I was living there for one year. I love the culture, the history, the people. I put myself through a lot of pain, a lot of surgical procedures to have more of a Korean aesthetic. I spent a lot of time learning the language, learning how to cook Korean food.”

London said “people didn’t really get it” when they came out, but they hope to be more accepted over time.

On the other side of the table, the woman opened her response by immediately rejecting the idea of transracialism.

“Transracial does not exist, and I think it’s very, very harmful to push the narrative that it is possible to switch races,” she said.

“I can’t sit up here and suddenly say ‘Oh, I’m a white woman. And if you as a white person says, ‘Oh, I can be Black or I can be Korean,’ and I can’t swap or benefit from the privilege that you benefit from, then it’s clearly not an equal exchange. Because whiteness in this country has been set up in a way. How I interact with the police, how I interact with the medical system can result in me dying.”"

If the objection is to claiming or giving up privilege, then I don't see that as a valid objection. Someone who is AMAB transgender gives up privilege transitioning to female, that doesn't mean it isn't possible to transition. And I don't pretend to not have been the beneficiary of male privilege for the past fifty years, but that doesn't make me less female now.

 

[Absolution]

This was just heard at a hearing for a slew of anti-trans bills in ND (incl. full legalization of conversion therapy read: child torture):

View attachment 651847

Arkansas is currently debating a bill that would make it illegal to “sing, dance, or perform while performing a gender identity other than that assigned at birth” for “purient interest,” which, interpreted liberally, could be, say, a trans woman wearing a crop top or blush or a skirt or literally anything in public. They think we do this as a fetish, so by definition any public presence on our part becomes a performance for “purient interest”.

WV is debating a bill to make any kind of “transgender exposure” in the presence of minors illegal.

MS is debating a bill to make it a felony with a minimum 5-year prison sentence to CONSENT to HRT under the age of 21.

Oklahoma is debating a bill to make it illegal to prescribe or receive hormones under-26.

“Think of the children” was the wedge. The ultimate goal is to bring back the obscenity laws and the medical gatekeepers and make it illegal again simply to be visibly trans in public

It is crazy that this is the United States of America that we are talking about. The global light of liberty.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's worth noting since I mentioned Indigenous genocides above, that Canada, and presumably other settler colonial states who at the time were intent on destroying Indigenous peoples by slow forcible assimilationist means, specifically campaigned to prevent the explicit incision of cultural genocide in the text.

Trans don't fit the conventional definition of genocide or the more classical version.

Idk better term transcide, transerasure etc but genocide doesn't fit.

 

[Broken_Erika]

It is crazy that this is the United States of America that we are talking about. The global light of liberty.

A sizeable chunk of their population doesn't like change and wants to go backwards to The Good Old Days™

 

[Absolution]

Out of interest what do people think about Oli London?

'I’m Korean, people need to accept that': Oli London defends ‘transracial’ identity against Black woman

London, 31, who underwent multiple surgeries to look like BTS member Jimin, most recently identified as a Korean woman using “they/them” pronouns. In the May 2 episode of the Channel 4 series, London sat down with a Black woman, who was not named in the video, to discuss whether someone can...

www.yahoo.com

"London, 31, who underwent multiple surgeries to look like BTS member Jimin, most recently identified as a Korean woman using “they/them” pronouns.

In the May 2 episode of the Channel 4 series, London sat down with a Black woman, who was not named in the video, to discuss whether someone can identify as “transracial.”

“I identify as Korean,” London said. “I used to live in Korea. I was living there for one year. I love the culture, the history, the people. I put myself through a lot of pain, a lot of surgical procedures to have more of a Korean aesthetic. I spent a lot of time learning the language, learning how to cook Korean food.”

London said “people didn’t really get it” when they came out, but they hope to be more accepted over time.

On the other side of the table, the woman opened her response by immediately rejecting the idea of transracialism.

“Transracial does not exist, and I think it’s very, very harmful to push the narrative that it is possible to switch races,” she said.

“I can’t sit up here and suddenly say ‘Oh, I’m a white woman. And if you as a white person says, ‘Oh, I can be Black or I can be Korean,’ and I can’t swap or benefit from the privilege that you benefit from, then it’s clearly not an equal exchange. Because whiteness in this country has been set up in a way. How I interact with the police, how I interact with the medical system can result in me dying.”"

Opinion holders in England spent years trying to convince that people of colour who move to England and behave as any Englishmen and women can be referred to as English.
How are we now struggling to accept that for a person who, on top of all of that, also tried to physically accustum to a new culture? Just because the host culture is not white?


Personally, I think that as with any other similiar case - we should treat the person however he or she prefers, while still knowing that the person is in fact of this or that origin.

 

[sophie]

Trans don't fit the conventional definition of genocide or the more classical version.

Idk better term transcide, transerasure etc but genocide doesn't fit.

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

Out of interest what do people think about Oli London?

'I’m Korean, people need to accept that': Oli London defends ‘transracial’ identity against Black woman

London, 31, who underwent multiple surgeries to look like BTS member Jimin, most recently identified as a Korean woman using “they/them” pronouns. In the May 2 episode of the Channel 4 series, London sat down with a Black woman, who was not named in the video, to discuss whether someone can...

www.yahoo.com

"London, 31, who underwent multiple surgeries to look like BTS member Jimin, most recently identified as a Korean woman using “they/them” pronouns.

In the May 2 episode of the Channel 4 series, London sat down with a Black woman, who was not named in the video, to discuss whether someone can identify as “transracial.”

“I identify as Korean,” London said. “I used to live in Korea. I was living there for one year. I love the culture, the history, the people. I put myself through a lot of pain, a lot of surgical procedures to have more of a Korean aesthetic. I spent a lot of time learning the language, learning how to cook Korean food.”

London said “people didn’t really get it” when they came out, but they hope to be more accepted over time.

On the other side of the table, the woman opened her response by immediately rejecting the idea of transracialism.

“Transracial does not exist, and I think it’s very, very harmful to push the narrative that it is possible to switch races,” she said.

“I can’t sit up here and suddenly say ‘Oh, I’m a white woman. And if you as a white person says, ‘Oh, I can be Black or I can be Korean,’ and I can’t swap or benefit from the privilege that you benefit from, then it’s clearly not an equal exchange. Because whiteness in this country has been set up in a way. How I interact with the police, how I interact with the medical system can result in me dying.”"

“I’m Korean, people need to accept that,” they said.

Actually no we don't.

 

[amadeus]

Isn't it funny how that argument ("drag constitutes blackface against women") is also one used to denounce trans women and justify restrictions on our access to single-sex spaces.

I’m not entirely sure how they became conflated because one is (oversimplifying) a costuming subculture that is not inherently tied to gender.

I find the whole drag storybook time thing to be weird and provocative, but nothing to do with bodily autonomy in which I fully support the rights of individuals.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

my argument [if it needs to be that crystal clear] at least in post #112 is that drag is no different than blackface. and people who want both gone should be thanked.

Quick question; do you extend this to trans women as well?

 

[Snowygerry]

I knew at least 1 trans woman who ran a show assemble that included drag acts, she was quite succesful too, did large venues, even Vegas iirc.

She also had a shop and made her own costumes,

and as stated, we used to play poker there back when the new millennium was still young, great parties

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I just can't get over the equivocating of drag with "black face" what, are black drag artists now racist against themselves or something?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

my argument [if it needs to be that crystal clear] at least in post #112 is that drag is no different than blackface. and people who want both gone should be thanked.

Perhaps if you think what motivates someone who is in drag, and compare that to someone who put on blackface. Then I think you'll realize the difference.

 

[IglooDame]

“I’m Korean, people need to accept that,” they said.

Actually no we don't.

No, it's true, there's nothing legally requiring you to do so. But here's what I don't get. Why does it matter to you, either way? Presuming you're not racist and explicitly going to treat him differently depending on whether he is 'actually' Korean or not, of course. Does it cost you anything to think "okay, the person obviously is very invested in their being Korean, and goodness knows that my cousin despite being only a quarter Irish is very into Irish culture and calling people amateurs on St Patrick's Day and I don't give him a hard time about that, so sure, treat this person as Korean because why the hell not?" You don't even have to make the mental effort to remember different pronouns for the Korean fellow. Is it truly any different than the adopted-at-birth-in-wherever-continent child raised in a very WASP home and neighborhood in Suburbia, US whose ethnicity is essentially "WASP" despite their apparent racial characteristics? Who is it hurting for racial or ethnic identity to be malleable?

Just please don't tell me "we shouldn't give in to such lunacy, it's for this fellow's own good" because that's really a non-starter based on the experiences of every 'visibly transgender' person on the planet so far that has gotten pushback from people deliberately refusing to acknowledge the trans person's correct gender. "Tough love" is definitely not a vibe they're getting while being misgendered, it tends more toward "sadism", "malice", or "hatred".

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

But here's what I don't get. Why does it matter to you, either way?

I'm not even sure how I go about accepting that. It would imply treating Koreans a certain way. If it's just:
I'm Korean!
Sure, if you say so.
then fine of course I guess.

But the opposite is true as well.
I'm Korean!
No you're not!
then what? Also fine I guess.

In both cases it's an irrelevant qualifier as far as I can tell. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[IglooDame]

I'm not even sure how I go about accepting that. It would imply treating Koreans a certain way. If it's just:
I'm Korean!
Sure, if you say so.
then fine of course I guess.

But the opposite is true as well.
I'm Korean!
No you're not!
then what? Also fine I guess.

In both cases it's an irrelevant qualifier as far as I can tell. Maybe I'm missing something.

That's kind of what I'm getting at. It obviously matters a lot to the Korean fellow. I don't get how it matters to anyone else all that much. So why not just say/think "Okay, he's Korean" and continue on with one's life?

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

Quick question; do you extend this to trans women as well?

No I don't think trans individuals should be "gone".
I think performances which make caricatures of groups of people should not be tolerated. By anyone. (Whether there are laws against it or not are beside the point to me.)
Sure you could say that drag is "harmless fun", but so too did people believe the same thing about blackface.

These are some of the few references to drag show in the piece that I was commenting on:

G.O.P. State Lawmakers Push a Growing Wave of Anti-Transgender Bills

Four states could ban transition care into young adulthood. Lawmakers in several others want to restrict drag shows in ways that could affect transgender performers broadly. It’s part of a long-term plan.

www.nytimes.com

...The bills they have proposed — more than 150 in at least 25 states — include bans on transition care into young adulthood; restrictions on drag shows using definitions that could broadly encompass performances by transgender people;...
They could encompass. They also could not. I referenced this earlier in the topic by directly citing just one bill. And offering a rhetorical question: about whether strip clubs with women ought to be viewed the same as drag show with men pretending to be women doing pretty much same thing with their bodies. Either it's "okay" for minor children to see both or it's not.
But this leads into my next observation:
...
The 25-year-olds who would be unable to receive transition care in Oklahoma and South Carolina are not, after all, children. An Arizona bill would ban drag shows on Sunday mornings whether or not minors were around. (The lawmakers who introduced those bills did not respond to requests for comment.)
Look, Maggie Astor, if you want to make this an issue about the free speech of drag performers to be able to work Sundays, then do that. If you want to make this issue one about the health of trans individuals, then do that. But these are two distinct things. Someone's ability to not be able to act in drag shows for ONE day of the week will not harm their livelihood, like the other would. I'm just not sure what the second sentence has to do, at all, with the first. Other than the bog-standard harrumphing about Republicans. Which if you want to do that then ok.

 

[Gorbles]

Sure you could say that drag is "harmless fun", but so too did people believe the same thing about blackface.

These are in no way the same thing and shouldn't be presented as being so.

 

[El_Machinae]

I think a very basic premise that might be not getting communicated - drag isn't 'mocking' like blackface was (and thus its tied to its history). It's definitely performative, so if someone wanted to look for offense they could find it. The nuance of offense is truly difficult to understand. Putting on a Nazi uniform for Halloween is offensive (even if they're absolutely terrifying) but Christopher Waltz gets a standing ovation for playing one.

Consider Tropic Thunder. It wasn't an actor putting on black face to either mock or respect portraying a black person. RDJ was portraying an actor so desperate that he put on black face, and some of the humor is even from breaking the fourth wall. And yet, some people could find offense and other people get squicked because they suspect that other people might find offense.

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

That's kind of what I'm getting at. It obviously matters a lot to the Korean fellow. I don't get how it matters to anyone else all that much. So why not just say/think "Okay, he's Korean" and continue on with one's life?

This works until it is something that you do have feelings about, unless you are incredibly relaxed. Flat Earthers? Pro-Lifers? Vegans? Eventually there is someone you're going to disagree with.

 

[Samson]

This works until it is something that you do have feelings about, unless you are incredibly relaxed. Flat Earthers? Pro-Lifers? Vegans? Eventually there is someone you're going to disagree with.

No one says you are not a vegan because you were not born a vegan.