[RD] Trans Genocide

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If I deliberately poison the water reserves of a population, it doesn't really matter if I "did it badly", eg used a poison that was too weak by accident.
i would say it matters (quite a lot to the poisoned, because they live and now have id'd an enemy), but that it does not remove your culpability.

but doing something to harm is still in a different conceptual bucket from refusing to help. it would similarly be unethical to know about someone else planning to poison the water and not acting in any way to stop it. however, it would also be wrong if someone accused you of poisoning the water directly when you did not, in fact, poison the water directly. that distinction is important.
 
They're different concepts, even if it's very easy to cross them over in a Venn Diagram. In a genocidal program, you'd use both techniques, so I am not sure that the difference really matters, since it's the holistic effort that matters. Removing protections is the same thing as removing supports. Time with a doctor is the same governmental service as time with a police investigator, even though we tend to sort "vs hostile people" as a different category as "vs a hostile environment". The environment can hurt you just as much as people can hurt you, but we think of them differently.

As Schlau points out, similar treatments are still being provided when it's other conditions being presented. "Friendly" doctors will still exist, but a lot is being asked of them.
 
but doing something to harm is still in a different conceptual bucket from refusing to help.
Incorrect. Refusing to help is an action. It still has consequences attached to it.

Remember, as you keep divorcing this from context (presumably intentionally, the amount of times you've done it), the context isn't an individual act of kindness. It's intentional government policy. It's not somebody else poisoning the water. In this tortured analogy, it's the government refusing to invest in treatment (facilities, staff, the health sector generally, you name it), but only for a specific minority. What would your reaction would be if a state government stopped funding treatment for white men?
 
Trans people are being hurt by an uncaring, malicious government who outright want them gone and all you, @TheMeInTeam, can do is play devil's advocate for them, despite claiming to be libertarian.
 
They're different concepts, even if it's very easy to cross them over in a Venn Diagram. In a genocidal program, you'd use both techniques, so I am not sure that the difference really matters, since it's the holistic effort that matters. Removing protections is the same thing as removing supports. Time with a doctor is the same governmental service as time with a police investigator, even though we tend to sort "vs hostile people" as a different category as "vs a hostile environment". The environment can hurt you just as much as people can hurt you, but we think of them differently.

They aren't different, and we ought push back against the impulse to think of them differently though, as I keep noting. The government is adopting policy designed to restrict our ability to be because they wish us not to exist. That is genocide. It is just that simple. People shy away from the direct language which describes accurately what is happening because it is painful to think about a Western liberal democracy doing such a thing, but they have and they are. Adopting weak language to spare yourself the pain of having to think about the depths of the depravity is deeply disturbing to me. As George Carlin noted, the purpose of weak language is to euphemize away our suffering so you can go about your day foot loose and fancy free as we continue to get our faces stomped into the pavement. Please do not forget about us. We are still here. The government is still trying to wipe us out.

As Schlau points out, similar treatments are still being provided when it's other conditions being presented. "Friendly" doctors will still exist, but a lot is being asked of them.

you can just call me sophie :)

Are trans people existing actually a social movement though? Yes, that's the genocide argument, the seeking to kill a social people, but are trans people actually created by a social construct? Like a culture, or a religion, or an education. I'm going to find the arguments I have offline much more difficult if the movement creates the people, rather than liberates the people who have already always been there*. That's just my observation from the problem population. Or whatever we are by birth over in that yonder CRT thread.

*But it'd be good to know if that's the currently accepted lens.

We're both. My transness is of course an innate component of who I am; I knew I was a girl long before I had any idea what transgender was. However, because of the nature of society, we are pushed out of "us" and constituted as a coherent body defined by its otherness. We are made into a social people because cis society defined us as such, and because our otherness drives us to seek one another for safety and companionship when nobody else would give us the time of day. And finally, because a social body, so constituted, is a more effective tool for political recognition and advocacy than as disconnected individuals.

In this sense we are no different than any other "social people." There is nothing intrinsically, essentially, unifying in gay, lesbian, bi, trans, intersex, asexual, pan, or poly people. And yet the ontologies of our patriarchal society classify our otherness as one queer people, which we in turn make our own. In much the same way that there is nothing inherently, physiologically, or even genetically, "one" in the various strands of the Jewish diaspora, and yet they are constituted by their otherness into a coherent people, a national identity. Or how Wampanoag, Cherokee, Seminole, Tlingit, Apache, and Ohlone are disparate peoples separated by language, geography, culture, and history, and yet are constituted by European society, and in turn constitute themselves as one single nation of nations, united in common struggle. Same with Pan-Africanism. Same with feminism. etc.

Right? If it's a choice, the argument made, then, particularly children, can be "convinced to be trans." So it wouldn't be sucking it up in that outlook, it would never have been being trans in the first place. Which was the last point as well. A situation where people would argue one never was in the first place either. If that makes sense?

This is literally what they believe. They think we are a "social contagion," i.e. we are delusional people who are deceiving impressionable children into unnecessarily mutilating their bodies (and also reducing our white birthing stock). It ties back into their historical narrative that in the past we were a moral nation, which has declined into degeneracy in the time since, diluted by atheism, by communism, by the blacks, the arabs, and the queers, and a great realignment (read: cleansing) is necessary to return us to our historical birthright.

Sound familiar?
 
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My problem with the term genocide is that it implicates that they are right, that being LGBQT is a choice akin to a religion or nationality.

This is a categorically bad take. First because neither religion nor national origin are actually choices. Generally speaking, if someone is born into an ethnic or religious community they cannot simply choose not to be a part of that community. And secondly, even in cases where people do leave the communities of their birth, genocidaires do not typically allow this to be a get-out-death-free card: in the Holocaust, for example, the government of your country at the time defined Jewish people as those with one or more Jewish grandparent. A "Jewish" person's choice to actively participate in the life of the Jewish community (or not) was completely irrelevant to this determination.
 
"Choices of the victimes" isn't really part of it, since you can have a culture genocided or a genocide conducted on purely physical features. Insofar as being a member of a religion is voluntary, we package 'religion' into the definition.

They aren't different, and we ought push back against the impulse to think of them differently though [...] The government is adopting policy designed to restrict our ability to be because they wish us not to exist.

I have asked about the withdrawal of supports for Afghan women a few times (a much more invisible cohort on CFC than trans Americans).
But your second statement there is about 'intent', which I will grant in the Florida case.

I think there are four quadrants in this discussion: withdrawing supports vs active harms / mal-intent vs. neutral intent.
 
Religion is not a choice. That's a straight faced statement? You'd sell that?

So, are we arguing that we are currently treating religion like did the state of Israel and the Third Riech?
 
Fwiw I would just call it social erasure. (If we were to use it.) Not attempted. Like with genocide, it's actually more attempt and intent that matters than the outcome. I've eg seen the example in another contexr that an officer of the US at one point gave Native Americans infected carpets to warm themselves in, hoping they would die. regardless of how many people died there, it doesn't really matter as to whether it worked, the argument is that it's still genocide. If we were to call this policy social erasure, there's absolutely no reason to make the distinction it's attempted. If I deliberately poison the water reserves of a population, it doesn't really matter if I "did it badly", eg used a poison that was too weak by accident.
Well, the secret sauce here is that social erasure is an explicit step in the genocide handbook. If one supports social erasure but not genocide, then they are inadvertently admitting they're just too uncomfortable with the idea that they are participating in a society that is genocidal. (This point was also brought up earlier by Sophie, with comparisons to colonialism.)


Read those stages and you will find that more of them fit what's happening than stages that don't, and that's even with a focus on the Holocaust, which is everyone's favourite pet genocide in the "this is not a genocide" argument. Genocide is not a term that can only be applied in hindsight. It is an active process that takes time to enact. We have enough history and context to be able to see what's happening, and it will take acknowledging that reality in order for us to properly counteract it. Minimizing the intensity of the language is truly of no help to victims or those who are allies to "the cause." It simply allows the perpetrators to hide in the crime.
 
That is genocide. It is just that simple. People shy away from the direct language which describes accurately what is happening
little bit too much projection here. i've already pointed out why it is inaccurate. so have you, when you presented the definition yourself.

If one supports social erasure but not genocide
you might notice this doesn't work if you apply it to non-trans issues. there are plenty of things that are useful to erase socially, which do not imply killing/eliminating groups at scale.
 
I have asked about the withdrawal of supports for Afghan women a few times (a much more invisible cohort on CFC than trans Americans).
But your second statement there is about 'intent', which I will grant in the Florida case.

Certainly. But as with the trans conversation that is actually the point of this thread, it is not a matter of simply "withdrawing support." And it is laughable in the extreme to suggest as much on both sides of the equation.

you might notice this doesn't work if you apply it to non-trans issues. there are plenty of things that are useful to erase socially, which do not imply killing/eliminating groups at scale.

Note the subtle shift from "they are not trying to erase you," to "so what if they are trying to erase you."

This is how genocides function.
 
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Religion is not a choice. That's a straight faced statement? You'd sell that?

So, are we arguing that we are currently treating religion like did the state of Israel and the Third Riech?

Sometimes adults choose to join religious communities, but I would argue that is the exception rather than the rule. Most people who are members of a religion were brought up as children in that religion. I would say that an adult conversion into a religion is necessary for it to be considered a true choice; children and babies do not have a meaningful choice (but I am not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, if that's what you're thinking).

If we're talking specifically about Judaism, which is both a religion and an ethnicity, the element of choice recedes further. Very few adults convert into Judaism. Outside of a few sects that still practice shunning, when someone is born into the Jewish community they are considered in Jewish law to be Jewish regardless of what future choices they might make. And, as I noted in the previous post, in the context of the actual genocide against the Jews of Europe, the perpetrators of the genocide defined the Jewish population in racial rather than confessional terms.

I have no idea what the second line here means or where it is going.
 
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I think the point of the thread included whether the term 'genocide' was appropriate, so trying to draw parallels while figuring out what people mean is fair.

We have established two things: targeting people to lose supports can easily be part of a genocidal program and targeting based on gender identity or sexual orientation is a perfectly fair read-in.

I guess what makes liberal abandonment of Afghan women not 'assisting genocide' is ... um ... not actually sure.
 
They are basically saying they will harm themselves u less they get free things. That is what emotional abusers do. BTW the suicide rate among "trans" people is almost exactly the same post op as pre op so it is pretty clear giving them the free yet extremely harmful free stuff doesn't help their mental illness or suicide rates. If they are going to self harm then they need to be in institutional care because their supposed "cure" doesn't seem to improve the supposed problem of self harm.

What the christ are you on about? Absolutely disgusting transphobic comment
 
They are basically saying they will harm themselves u less they get free things. That is what emotional abusers do. BTW the suicide rate among "trans" people is almost exactly the same post op as pre op so it is pretty clear giving them the free yet extremely harmful free stuff doesn't help their mental illness or suicide rates. If they are going to self harm then they need to be in institutional care because their supposed "cure" doesn't seem to improve the supposed problem of self harm.
Let's put trans people in camps because they're emotional abusers?

And this why the thread is called trans genocide. We're not at camps, but they're being called for.
 
I guess what makes liberal abandonment of Afghan women not 'assisting genocide' is ... um ... not actually sure.

Probably because the US occupation and puppet regime were themselves inflicting genocidal conditions on the countryside
 
It's ****ing medication, what's the matter with you @Oerdin, what do you fail to grasp in this situation?

If it was medication then we have to follow the basic medical Tennant of first due no harm. These supposed medications do immediate and irreversible harm sterilizing children for life, stunting their growth, if administered at a young age it leaves males permanently unable to experience orgasm for life, it decreases bone density, and ultimately leaves people life dependent upon these "medication" meaning they die if they stop taking them. That is a lot of irreversible harm especially since it doesn't even solve the original problem you mentioned in the OP about suicide rates. Suicide rates are almost entirely uneffected by this supposed "care".

Add into the fact that the vast majority of these people are mentally ill, a majority are also autistic at least for m2f, and it really doesn't look good. There is very little science to support harmful interventions which don't help the original issue.
 
They are basically saying they will harm themselves u less they get free things. That is what emotional abusers do. BTW the suicide rate among "trans" people is almost exactly the same post op as pre op so it is pretty clear giving them the free yet extremely harmful free stuff doesn't help their mental illness or suicide rates. If they are going to self harm then they need to be in institutional care because their supposed "cure" doesn't seem to improve the supposed problem of self harm.
If it was medication then we have to follow the basic medical Tennant of first due no harm. These supposed medications do immediate and irreversible harm sterilizing children for life, stunting their growth, if administered at a young age it leaves males permanently unable to experience orgasm for life, it decreases bone density, and ultimately leaves people life dependent upon these "medication" meaning they die if they stop taking them. That is a lot of irreversible harm especially since it doesn't even solve the original problem you mentioned in the OP about suicide rates. Suicide rates are almost entirely uneffected by this supposed "care".

Add into the fact that the vast majority of these people are mentally ill, a majority are also autistic at least for m2f, and it really doesn't look good. There is very little science to support harmful interventions which don't help the original issue.

The Nazis were influenced by earlier ideas conflating homosexuality, child molestation, and the "seduction of youth".[42] Before the Nazis' rise to power, there was a widespread belief among Germans that homosexuality is not inborn but instead could be acquired and spread.[83] The Nazis were particularly concerned their all-male organizations such as the Hitler Youth, SS, and SA must not be seen as hotbeds of homosexual recruitment.[36] Based on the theories of Karl Bonhoeffer and Emil Kraepelin,[84] the Nazis believed homosexuals seduced young men and infected them with homosexuality, permanently changing their sexual orientation. Rhetoric described homosexuality as a contagious disease[85] but not in the medical sense. Rather, homosexuality was a disease of the Volkskörper (national body), a metaphor for the desired national or racial community (Volksgemeinschaft).[86]

The Nazis distinguished between congenital homosexuals who would require permanent imprisonment and others who had engaged in homosexuality but were thought to be curable with a short stay in a concentration camp or psychiatric treatment. Distinguishing between these categories was a difficulty that preoccupied the Nazis, especially after many cases of homosexuality surfaced in the supposedly racially pure SS. Succumbing to a homosexual act once, especially when drunk, was not necessarily considered evidence of homosexual inclination.[94][86] The Göring Institute offered treatment to homosexuals referred by the Hitler Youth and other Nazi organizations; by 1938 it claimed to have changed the sexual orientation in 341 of 510 patients and by 1944, it claimed to have eliminated homosexuality in more than 500 men. The institute intervened to reduce sentences in some cases.[95]

In June 1935, the Sterilization Law [de] was amended to allow individual convicted criminals to be "voluntarily" sterilized to eliminate their "degenerate sex drive".[105][118] During the Nazi era, the regime considered extending the policy of involuntary castration that was previously applied to child molesters and other sex offenders to homosexuals but such a law was never passed.[119] In 1943, Gestapo chief Ernst Kaltenbrunner advocated for a law for involuntary castration of homosexuals and sex offenders but withdrew this request because he believed the Gestapo could ensure castrations were carried out where it desired.[120][121]

Although the fiction of voluntary castration was maintained, some homosexuals were subject to severe pressure and coercion to agree to castration. There was no age limit; some boys as young as 16 were castrated. Those who agreed to castration were exempted from being transferred to a concentration camp after completing their legal sentence, a threat which was leveraged to encourage men to "volunteer" for the procedure.[122] An estimated 400 to 800 men were castrated in this manner.[60]
 
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