TT01: Beating Demigod

[templar_x]

ok, that´s what was meant. got it now, thanks overseer.
somehow i have taken the iron thing as a general or parallel question like if that, too, would be seen as an exploit. didn´t connect it to the mounted unit-question. sorry for the misunderstanding tt, i really should get out of office now that it´s after 10pm - on sunday! i´m obviously

 

[templar_x]

I might even consider a pillaging mission to fix that, we'll see. I am ready to play.

good luck and beat the dead Persian horse... dead

 

[DWetzel]

It would be Iron you would disconnect/reconnect to build horses to then upgrade into knights, it would be a pain to do, since our Iron is on a mountain. We'd need a ton of workers doing nothing but reconnecting. It can be done, it is an exploit, but not an egregious one, IMO. I think we don't need it at this point, but I could be convinced. Buce, re-downloaded the save, I'm good to go. I'll have to remember that little trick. I will keep an army near Persepolis for the flips, which will probably keep happening until Persia is dead. I'll bet the horses are coming from what used to be Portugals horse tile. I might even consider a pillaging mission to fix that, we'll see. I am ready to play.

Good luck sir!

As I'm on deck--if you happen to pull this off this afternoon, please post ASAP, and anyone with discussion input please be ready to give it semi-quickly. I have plenty of time to play the rest of today--potentially not so much after that. It should not be THAT big a deal, but I'd much rather do it sooner rather than later.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I won't hurry, but I will try to be expedient.

 

[TheOverseer714]

It took longer than expected, sorry. I will post the save now and add the turn-log later. I left a SM where he could be attacked If he wins we get a Golden Age. Do we want it yet?

The turn-log:

Spoiler :

Pre-Flight: CivAssist 2, Word running. Open the save, look things over.
Change Amsterdam and Delft to SMs, Middleburg to a Galley for Operation Horseless Persia, all build in 3 turns.

Civilian units:
Settler 3
Workers 9
Military units:
Warriors 5
Archers 4
Swords 9
Knights 3
Swiss Mercs 8
MDIs 17
Armies 3, 1 Sword, 2 MDI
Catapults 15

Ships:
Galley 1

Unit stats
Total units 77
Units Allowed 52
Unit support 25 gpt.

Press enter=>

IBT: Persians want to talk….no. 4 horses and an archer arrive at Persepolis, 1 kills a redlined MDI easily. Guess it’s not flips that are going to be our only problem, it will be defending it.
Rotterdam MDI=>MDI.
Lauwersoog SM=>SM.

Turn 1, 90 AD: At Persepolis, retreat 1 horse with an MDI, kill 2 with Sword Army. Defending next IBT, 2 healthy MDI vs a Horse and an Archer. Assuming no flip, that is.
Hire a clown at the Hague, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam to prevent riots, marginally better than raising the lux slider (saves 4gpt).

IBT: At Persepolis, retreat 1 Horse with MDI on defense, kill 1 Archer, 1 promotion. A Crusader comes out of Pasargadae. Starvation at Persepolis.
The Hague MDI=>Knight.
Breda MDI=>MDI.
Leiden Barracks=>SM.

Turn 2, 110 AD: Kill a loose Archer with 1 MDI army, Kill Redlined Horse and Crusader with Sword army. Move other MDI army, now healthy, into action.
Set Persepolis back to starving.

IBT: No attacks, 2 Persian Archers move in. Starvation at Persepolis.
Portugal wants an Alliance vs Vikings. Nah.
Amsterdam SM=>MDI.
Delft SM=>SM.
Middleburg Riots……missed that one.

Turn 3, 130 AD: At Leiden, kill a spear with an MDI losing 1 hp, at Persepolis, an archer an eMDI losing 1 hp.
Set Persepolis back to starving.
Move MDI army and 2 Knights toward Pasargadae.
Gouda settled to lock down Ivory, but need 1 more turn to hook up.
Guarded workers positioned to do it.

IBT: An Archer and Horse move toward Persepolis. Starvation at Persepolis.
Iroquois want an Alliance vs Vikings. Nope.
GLib gives us Invention.
Arnhem SM=>SM.
Middleburg Galley=>Trebuchet.
Breda riots. Must have pulled an mp.
Tilburg Wall=>Trebuchet.

Turn 4, 150 AD: I can fire all clowns. Hook Ivory up.
Set Persepolis back to starving.
Kill Archer and Horseman near Persepolis, 3 Spears in Pasargadae, losing 6 hp between 2 armies and 2 Knights.

IBT: Exposed eMDI survives 3 Horses, no leader, then Persepolis deposes.
Riots in major cities, due to loss of Ivory (it was hooked through Persian territory.

Turn 5, 170 AD: Lose 3 hp killing 2 Spears at Persepolis with Sword army, Persepolis retaken. 5 resistors. Riots will end next turn, no adjustments needed.
Redline MDI army killing 2 Spears at Pasargadae.
Kill a Horse and a Longbow with Knights, no hp lost.
Kill a Spear at Pasargadae with other MDI Army, losing 2 hp.

IBT: Iroquois and Persia make peace. They DoW us. The galley in their territory further harms our Rep.
Iroquois send 1 Longbow at an empty town.
Persia lands an archer near Eindhoven.
Haarlem Trebuchet=>Trebuchet.

Turn 6, 190 AD: Redline another MDI Army killing the new Crusader, time to retreat and lick their wounds.
Kill the Iroquois Longbow clean.

IBT: Persian horse swoops in and grabs some slaves, must have miscalculated their range. They land another Archer near Eindhoven. Other archer moves into Viking lands.
Portugal warns us, now I’m really scared.
Rotterdam MDI=>MDI.
Groningen Settler=>Settler.
Breda MDI=>MDI.

Turn 7, 210 AD: Cats go 3 of 6 at Gandestaigon, eSwords beat 2 Spears clean, lose 2 hp to a Longbow, city taken and razed, we get 4 slaves.
General Buce Kills offending Persian horse clean. Another MDI recaptures our slaves.
Move wounded MDI armies under healthier Sword army.

IBT: Persia Longbow and Horse approach Gouda.
An Iroquois Spear heads south.
GLib gives us Printing Press.
Delft SM=>SM.
Paris finishes Sun Tzu’s.

Turn 8, 230 AD: Dordrecht settled on ashes of Gandestaigon=>Trebuchet.
Leerdam settled West of Persepolis=> Trebuchet.
Bombard and kill the Iroquois Spear.
Kill Persian Archer in Viking territory.

IBT: Vikings warn us.
Amsterdam MDI=>Knight.
The Hague Knight=>Knight.
Utrecht MDI=>MDI.

Turn 9, 250 AD: Bombard and kill Persian Horse. Move troops toward Salamanca.

IBT:

Turn 10, 90 AD:

Cities: 24
Amsterdam: Size 12, growth stalled, Knight in 7 turns.
Rotterdam: Size 8, growth in 6, Swiss Merc in 2 turns.
The Hague: Size 7, growth stalled, Knight in 7 turns.
Utrecht: Size 7, growth in 29, MDI in 10 turns.
Groningen: Size 7, growth in 9, Settler in 10 turns.
Eindhoven: Size 6, growth in 6, Trebuchet in 7 turns.
Arnhem: Size 6, growth stalled, MDI in 3 turns.
Haarlem: Size 6, growth in 9, Trebuchet in 7 turns.
Too many to list and keep track of.

Civilian units:
Settlers 2
Workers 9
Military units:
Warriors 5
Archers 4
Swords 9
Knights 4
Swiss Mercs 13
MDIs 22
Armies 3, 1 Sword, 2 MDI
Catapults 15
Trebuchet 1

Ships:
Galley 2

Unit stats
Total units 89
Units Allowed 60
Unit support 29 gpt.

Contacts: 7
Persia-War
Vikings-Peace
Portugal-Peace
Iroquois-War
France-Peace
America-Peace
Inca-Peace

Research
Gunpowder, Infinite turn at +101 gpt

Sliders
90%/0%/10%

The save:

 

[DWetzel]

No problem, I just now checked in!

I think it's probably too late for me to play tonight, so let's start chatting. I will possibly play tomorrow evening, but I'm expecting a long, ugly day at work.

I see we're at war with the Iros again?

 

[TheOverseer714]

Yes they cancelled their war with Persia, thus ending our peace treaty. I just posted the log for your reading pleasure. Looks like Persepolis needs the cat stack that I have going the other way. Gotta run, have fun!

 

[Bucephalus]

You mean the exploit is that that once the build order is set, you can finish the build, even lacking the proper resource? That is in fact how our 3 horses were build in my turnset, when we lost our horses by a culture expansion of Copenhagen.

Do you think that disconnecting the iron is also an exploit?

I meant resource dicconnect/connect, I have no issue at all with the first example.

 

[Bucephalus]

A couple of observations:

If the Armies currently outside Persopolis pillage the approach roads to the city, it will not be necessary to risk losing that elite Knight to another flip.

Vikings know France, and we can sell communications; this implies France has Astronomy and PP; actually, it's more likely that the Vikings got the GLighthouse (anyone confirm?) and found a 5-tile crossing.

IMO, this means it's time to stir the pot overseas; obviously this would need to be with a tech, as news of our perfidy has now leaked out. I suggest Inca/USA allied v. France.

Edit: It is also time to gift the GLib, if we intend to; since contacts are available, it might as well be Inca or USA, and it needs doing before pressing enter in case Vikings get Education on the IBT.

I would also feel inclined to begin a military build-up on the Viking border, as and when we can spare the units. I don't think that the stack in Iroquois territory is potent enough to do any damage - personally, I would retreat it and use the Elite Swords there as leader-fishing units.

 

[DWetzel]

Portugal has the Lighthouse, in Lisbon. France is building Cop's, so they have Astronomy. They're becoming a bit of a runaway over there tech-wise; I agree that getting a war against them going is a good idea.

We have lost our trade rep with France, but not with Inca/USA--but that's a matter of time, I think. I am trying to think of a way to use that to our advantage before it's lost entirely.

We have PP, as does France and Persia (we must have gotten it from the GLib).

If we are going to gift it away, I'd like to give it to France. When the time is right we can DOW them and retake it as part of the alliances against them. France won't get anything out of it, already having Education. However, I don't think we're quite ready to do that as of yet. I'd take my chances on Education until we can capture Pasargarde (or determine that it's going to be a long way off).

I'd like to beat up some Vikes as well--but I think it's very premature, given our situation in the south. Which is to say, I would be delighted to build up our military on their borders as we can spare units--but I don't see that happening soon.

Good call on road pillaging. I'll get right on that.

 

[DWetzel]

Oh, and I think I plan on spending quite a bit of cash over the next few turns in the effort to make a push against Persia. Any objections?

 

[Bucephalus]

If we are going to gift it away, I'd like to give it to France. When the time is right we can DOW them and retake it as part of the alliances against them. France won't get anything out of it, already having Education. However, I don't think we're quite ready to do that as of yet. I'd take my chances on Education until we can capture Pasargarde (or determine that it's going to be a long way off)..

France is a good call, but I'm puzzled at how Pasargarde ties in? It's my bet that Vikings will have Education next turn, so as a strategy it's now or never, IMO.

 

[Bucephalus]

Oh, and I think I plan on spending quite a bit of cash over the next few turns in the effort to make a push against Persia. Any objections?

None here - it's what gold is for.

 

[DWetzel]

France is a good call, but I'm puzzled at how Pasargarde ties in? It's my bet that Vikings will have Education next turn, so as a strategy it's now or never, IMO.

You may be right. I think we need to come to a consensus on this then as a team--try to hold it, or gift it away for a bit? My personal opinion is we try to keep it. Gifting it away is a fine idea for the GLib in isolation--but the other wonders there (Pyramids and Great Wall) are just too juicy for us not to have them every chance we get. The Great Wall in particular will be quite nice for the remainder of our conquests.

I'm not entirely sure myself how Pasargarde tied in to that--except as a possible road route that way... don't ask.

 

[templar_x]

imho, give-take the GL is just like connect-disconnect a resource. thus a no in my terms of allowed and exploit, but i´m going with the majority, of course.

in this case, i however wouldn´t gift it away for more pragmatic reasons. there are other things improvements going with it, it gives just a bit of money and has the Pyramids as well as the GW. since we cannot allow our cities to grow a lot the Pramids currently don´t help much, but i really like the sudden walls in any town taken by us. this helps a lot when you attack with thin forces.

don´t we use a single scientist on purpose? i always had the impression, his turns´ research gave me a discount when trading for techs as well. if you know better, this was a question i always wanted to be cleared, so please let me know.

if feasible, razing Salamanca would be nice for the reason of cp - Dordrecht suffers 7-14% flip risk! it should lessen a lot with Sal gone. is Hiawatha giving us WH now?

looking at the save, i hope those Persian galleys all already have unloaded their troops. we don´t have many of our own around, Arnhem is empty even.

for the GA, i do not see how we can really hold that off any more. when it happens, it will be there, and not for the worst point of time: we´ll need to finish the Persians off, be prepared for the Vikes PLUS build some markets some time. I would like to do all of that soon, which would altogether be possible only in... the golden age.

sure, DW, go and spend the money (you´re not female are you?)
good luck.

 

[templar_x]

DW, be careful if you move the stack towards Pesergadae, the workers underneath have no movement left.
and there should be quite a few upgrades of cats possible.
Den Helder only needs 1 shield to finish that SM.
i´m not sure if we already are able to hold too many troops back from the front. you will see how feasible this is.

i really like the progress from the last save. good we are back in the offensive!

 

[Bucephalus]

imho, give-take the GL is just like connect-disconnect a resource. thus a no in my terms of allowed and exploit, but i´m going with the majority, of course..

That's a fair point, and if that's the way we decide to go it's cool with me - we will win this game regardless.

What I'm saying is, if we are going to gift Persopolis, the time is now.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think we should keep the GLib and when it's obsolete, then we research on our own. If we have the entire continent, filled with specialist farms, we can either research ourselves, buy, or steal the tech we need. I say keep Persepolis. I think we may need to bypass Pasargadae and wipe out other Persian towns first, I had horrrible luck, even with armies. The money is there to spend, I didn't, but I saw nothing needing rushed. Different strategies. I'm sure you are glad that I didn't spend it Oh and burn Salamanca, the catapults can take their spears down in hp, and maybe get a leader there. My worry is the Vikings, they have Iron hooked up, they will be our toughest battle, and we can't even take Pasargadae. With armies. Against spears. I hope everyone else has better luck against them. It will take all 3 armies plus some help to take that city. Good luck, DW.

 

[templar_x]

That's a fair point, and if that's the way we decide to go it's cool with me - we will win this game regardless.

What I'm saying is, if we are going to gift Persopolis, the time is now.

sure, that was precise observation of the tech situation. you are absolutely correct in this analysis.

 

[ThinkTank]

I don't think we have sufficient infrastructure in place to do any sort of significant self-research right now, and for some time to come. Trade we can. I'm not with the exploit verdict, to me it's more a kind-a-funny-trick, but the idea of winning this game without the gift-retake-GLib appeals to me, so let's keep Persepolis. It's an extra challenge, and it will sharpen our trading skills.