Lurker's comment: In light of a recent demi-god standard sized map game I had, I agree with Bucephalus that Education will come quickly, if not next turn. If you don't, you'll have to start reseraching now or very, very soon. France having Printing Press weakens your ability to pick the right tech to research and trade it. Whatever you guys do, I suspect you'll want the GA as soon you start to research for faster research and so that you can build universities faster in your core.
TT01: Beating Demigod
- Thread starter ThinkTank
- Start date
ThinkTank
RL Addict
One request for the turnlogs, can everyone please post the win-loss numbers for combat? For me it helps assessing how well we are doing military wise. Certainly in the current phase, where our progress has been rather slow.
OK, I'm going to give it a go here, wish me luck!
Oh, to templar-x: "don´t we use a single scientist on purpose? i always had the impression, his turns´ research gave me a discount when trading for techs as well. if you know better, this was a question i always wanted to be cleared, so please let me know."
Yes, the research beakers will give a discount--but on more expensive techs, the 3 bpt isn't enough to make much of a dent. It matters when techs are 200 beakers or something--not so much when 2000. (It won't give you the "50 turn discount" if that makes sense--i.e. just because you have run lone scientist for 25 turns, you won't get a 50% discount.)
Oh, to templar-x: "don´t we use a single scientist on purpose? i always had the impression, his turns´ research gave me a discount when trading for techs as well. if you know better, this was a question i always wanted to be cleared, so please let me know."
Yes, the research beakers will give a discount--but on more expensive techs, the 3 bpt isn't enough to make much of a dent. It matters when techs are 200 beakers or something--not so much when 2000. (It won't give you the "50 turn discount" if that makes sense--i.e. just because you have run lone scientist for 25 turns, you won't get a 50% discount.)
ThinkTank
RL Addict
Good luck!
templar_x
usually walks his talks
good luck
yes, that makes perfect sense. this was exactly what i wanted to know - that you only get the beaker discount and not the turn discount. thanks!
Well, well, well. I think this was a pretty damn productive turn set. 
The one-screenshot pictorial for those of you who can't read:
The Cliff Notes version for those of you who CAN read but don't have much time:
Now, the fuller turn log:
We have a number of points of discussion to work on next.
The one-screenshot pictorial for those of you who can't read:
Spoiler :
The Cliff Notes version for those of you who CAN read but don't have much time:
Spoiler :
Now, the fuller turn log:
Spoiler :
We have a number of points of discussion to work on next.
Attachments
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Well-done on all points! We should finish those Persians, then there is no flip risk on that quarter. I think a short war to eliminate Portugal is upcoming, then the south is ours. The Vikings will be the tough war, they have pikes and may soon have Muskets.
Totally agree that the Vikings will be our difficult war (relatively speaking). But I think a good game plan there (i.e. cut resources first) will make it go smoothly.
The points I think need discussion:
1. What to do with the MGL. He has just arrived in Delft, which is due to finish a knight this turn. After that, we can decide what to do with him. I think the FP would be a wise call at this point--we have quite a few semi-corrupt towns that would benefit greatly.
2. An overall war plan. I would like to see us finish Persia, and take out Lisbon while we are down there. We don't have a whole lot of loose units available to crush Portugal's island at this point, but we can give it a shot.
3. In the war vs. the Iroquois, I strongly recommend we continue to press this. I might consider making peace if the Iros would give us all three of their off-continent cities, just so we don't need to go crush them. But really, we should be able to beat them silly. A couple of spears per city is no big deal. They are resourceless.
4. A research plan. We didn't have one. I went for Astronomy, even though France already has it, in the possibly misguided thought of getting to Navigation quickly. At this point, if we are going for conquest, we need naval power. France will be a very tough nut to crack over there--technologically advanced, and oh by the way have fun with the musketeers! We might want to consider taking out one of the weaklings over there first. I possibly (maybe SHOULD) have gone straight for Military Tradition and cavs, but frankly I don't think we will need them to finish off our continent.
5. Preparing for a war vs. the Vikings. Needless to say, that will be our toughest war. The good news is that with three armies, we should be fine. I think that when the time comes it should be a priority to take out all Viking resources as soon as possible, sending the armies on pillage missions. Positioning will be important.
6. In the very short term, we need to reposition the sword army in case another Persian town flips. I recommend the hill where our settler/worker/SM combo is--from there it can reach Sidon or Pasargarde. I have two units babysitting Perseopolis.
7. Knights rock. I just want to say that.
This upcoming turnset should be a fairly quiet one for the next player--a decent amount of repositioning of forces will be needed. Still, I didn't take ALL the head-smashing fun.
The points I think need discussion:
1. What to do with the MGL. He has just arrived in Delft, which is due to finish a knight this turn. After that, we can decide what to do with him. I think the FP would be a wise call at this point--we have quite a few semi-corrupt towns that would benefit greatly.
2. An overall war plan. I would like to see us finish Persia, and take out Lisbon while we are down there. We don't have a whole lot of loose units available to crush Portugal's island at this point, but we can give it a shot.
3. In the war vs. the Iroquois, I strongly recommend we continue to press this. I might consider making peace if the Iros would give us all three of their off-continent cities, just so we don't need to go crush them. But really, we should be able to beat them silly. A couple of spears per city is no big deal. They are resourceless.
4. A research plan. We didn't have one. I went for Astronomy, even though France already has it, in the possibly misguided thought of getting to Navigation quickly. At this point, if we are going for conquest, we need naval power. France will be a very tough nut to crack over there--technologically advanced, and oh by the way have fun with the musketeers! We might want to consider taking out one of the weaklings over there first. I possibly (maybe SHOULD) have gone straight for Military Tradition and cavs, but frankly I don't think we will need them to finish off our continent.
5. Preparing for a war vs. the Vikings. Needless to say, that will be our toughest war. The good news is that with three armies, we should be fine. I think that when the time comes it should be a priority to take out all Viking resources as soon as possible, sending the armies on pillage missions. Positioning will be important.
6. In the very short term, we need to reposition the sword army in case another Persian town flips. I recommend the hill where our settler/worker/SM combo is--from there it can reach Sidon or Pasargarde. I have two units babysitting Perseopolis.
7. Knights rock. I just want to say that.
This upcoming turnset should be a fairly quiet one for the next player--a decent amount of repositioning of forces will be needed. Still, I didn't take ALL the head-smashing fun.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Agreed.
That would make sense to me.
They always were resourceless, always weak. However it's not in our best interests losing units taking them out, we should let the Vikings continue to do that, which will allow us to begin a build-up on the Viking border.
IMO, this was the only mistake of the set - I would have bee-lined to MT, not necessarily in a head-long rush to Cavalry, but rather for better trade options. Researching something that is 'out there' is a waste of gold, IMO, especially as we still have the option of paying gpt when attached to a Peace deal.
I doubt that it will be as tough as you think - the Vikings territory is divided in two, and they will keep much of their forces on the island. It would certainly help if we upgraded those Cats - I cannot believe they have not been upgraded yet, twenty turns after getting Engineering.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Maybe we didn't reach an agreement, but still no war on the other continent - it really needs sorting.
templar_x
usually walks his talks
great progress, DWetzel! it´s fair i think that you did the slaughtering yourself this time since you only prepared for it last time. 
i, too, would have had another tech choice. maybe we should still switch, depends on how many beakers already invested.
i will have a look on the game when i get home late tonight. i think we have lots of things to discuss before going on. from the memory and your log i´d say:
+ MGL clearly for FP. should be in the town W of Persepolis and N of Pesergadae or somewhere there, i think. i´ll have a close look.
+ south: sure killing off the Persians to eliminate flip risks plus Ports while we are at it. troop shuffling forth and back takes a lot of time before rails, so we should finish the job in the south.
+ Iros: as long as we can destroy their towns one after the other with just a few units, we can do that imo. i agree that we should pause if we can get the islands for peace, as this will save quite some time.
+ war on the other continent: if we want to trigger that, it MUST be before the French get GP/salt. their neighbors are gassed if they have to fight musketeers - AI is incredibly bad against this UU, plus they would have to fight against France in their GA. that would make France only bigger and stronger, the opposite of what we intend with this war.
however, i don´t think we are going to have a hard time with their UU. we´ll have cavs until that.
i, too, would have had another tech choice. maybe we should still switch, depends on how many beakers already invested.
i will have a look on the game when i get home late tonight. i think we have lots of things to discuss before going on. from the memory and your log i´d say:
+ MGL clearly for FP. should be in the town W of Persepolis and N of Pesergadae or somewhere there, i think. i´ll have a close look.
+ south: sure killing off the Persians to eliminate flip risks plus Ports while we are at it. troop shuffling forth and back takes a lot of time before rails, so we should finish the job in the south.
+ Iros: as long as we can destroy their towns one after the other with just a few units, we can do that imo. i agree that we should pause if we can get the islands for peace, as this will save quite some time.
+ war on the other continent: if we want to trigger that, it MUST be before the French get GP/salt. their neighbors are gassed if they have to fight musketeers - AI is incredibly bad against this UU, plus they would have to fight against France in their GA. that would make France only bigger and stronger, the opposite of what we intend with this war.
however, i don´t think we are going to have a hard time with their UU. we´ll have cavs until that.
It does. I'm really of two minds about it right now.
On the one hand, weakening France via a war would be a good thing, clearly.
On the other hand, and perhaps I'm being unduly pessimistic, it would be nice to have a weakling over there to take out to establish a base of operations. Right now, I'm thinking that the Americans are ripe for the first butt-whipping. We have a very nice landing spot on mountains by Chicago, to absorb the initial blow, and we can build a replacement city on the hill near there. There MAY also be a convenient sea lane there (it looks like a live possibility). Also, looking at the continent, there's that lovely hourglass shape, so hopefully we can take one half and then consolidate for a bit.
My concern, and it's probably not that well founded, is that France will just wipe the floor with both of them (Inca first, then Americans) and we'll have a monster over there. We'll have a moderate monster anyway, but still...
On an unrelated point, you are right that we haven't yet upgraded our catapults. I think that we're fine as is, at least for the next turnset or so (until we get a major engagement ready vs. the Vikings.) We're also only two techs from Metallurgy, if we want to wait a bit and upgrade to cannons (which is my preference).
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
There will be no initial blow - we will land under the cover of an Army, which will not be attacked.
No disrespect, but that makes no sense at all; Cats are clearly not cutting it - even against Spears - and upgrade is 30g each. Why would we not want to upgrade now?
great progress, DWetzel! it´s fair i think that you did the slaughtering yourself this time since you only prepared for it last time.
i, too, would have had another tech choice. maybe we should still switch, depends on how many beakers already invested.
i will have a look on the game when i get home late tonight. i think we have lots of things to discuss before going on. from the memory and your log i´d say:
+ MGL clearly for FP. should be in the town W of Persepolis and N of Pesergadae or somewhere there, i think. i´ll have a close look.
+ south: sure killing off the Persians to eliminate flip risks plus Ports while we are at it. troop shuffling forth and back takes a lot of time before rails, so we should finish the job in the south.
+ Iros: as long as we can destroy their towns one after the other with just a few units, we can do that imo. i agree that we should pause if we can get the islands for peace, as this will save quite some time.
+ war on the other continent: if we want to trigger that, it MUST be before the French get GP/salt. their neighbors are gassed if they have to fight musketeers - AI is incredibly bad against this UU, plus they would have to fight against France in their GA. that would make France only bigger and stronger, the opposite of what we intend with this war.
however, i don´t think we are going to have a hard time with their UU. we´ll have cavs until that.
Yeah, I got to kick some butt, and for once it went pretty well. Plus I got the pleasure of both our anarchy and the start of the GA.
In retrospect, Astronomy was a pretty clear mistake. I am not quite sure what I was thinking. However, we're about 40% of the way there, may as well go with it for now. I would like to see us develop a reasonable long-term research plan before we go too much further though.
I agree (again) that the FP would be a wise choice sooner rather than later.
Purely for convenience right now, I think either Lauwerskoog or Leiden would be best--probably Lauwerskoog. It's building a courthouse right now, no reason that can't be swapped to a library or a military unit and rushed before turn ends. Lauwerskoog is a bit farther from our capital, and has a reasonably nice production base (including three mined BGs and a couple forests).
As a longer term play, Pasargarde would rock for the FP. Just look at all those hills and mountains (and the flood plains to be able to work them!). Stupid question of the day--can a town with your FP culture flip? And if so, does it stay there when you recapture? I wouldn't mind doing that now, but if we had to wait a few turns for it, I'd be fine with that. The more I think about the FP there, the happier I am with the decision.
If we decide that's a good spot, we should abandon Hilversum. It served its purpose as a combat settler and a saltpeter-grabber, but it's on a flood plain that Pasargarde could really use. I'd let it finish its worker (or swap to a settler) and then abandon it. Also, I just noticed that for some reason it is working a hill when it clearly should be working a flood plain. Sorry.
I think it's time to put Pasargarde and Perseopolis on more productive duties in preparation for them being useful, if we can.
On the Iroquois war, I've been taking it slowly as we had not too many units up there. If you're just reasonably cautious and wait until the catapults have a decent round, should be no trouble. A couple of knights are on the way (one is healing up), and the existing stack has 6 attackers and plenty of cats/trebs.
On your point re: the France war--too late. They have Gunpowder (as of the turn we got it) and they have saltpeter.
Truly, with the volume of catapults we have, right now, we do not need the upgrade--even at a bad hit percentage, we have had plenty in place to knock defenders down to 2 hp basically all the time. If there's a convenient point at which to upgrade, I'd consider it, but I'd MUCH rather get more units in the field and get our infrastructure up rather than upgrade the catapults.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
The upgrade from catapults to trebuchets is less brutal than from catapult to cannon, we can spread the cost into two steps instead of one big step. I just wish I had done it while we were running zero science. If we can get them to a barracks, do it as soon as possible. The FP should be built east of Breda, on a river. I'll get the save downloaded and check with CA 2.
ThinkTank
RL Addict
I vote FP too for the MGL. We may consider waiting and destroying the Persian first, and then put the FP in a former Persian town. Can you look at those options too Overseer?
OK, I withdraw that. With our GA started, we want the FP now, to have more useful cities profit from the GA bonuses.
I also think we need to instigate war on the other continent now. I'd say stick to the original idea, ally the other 2 against France, gunpowder or not. Do Inca and America have gunpowder too? In that case, France is not going to make much progress either. If not, we may consider gifting them gunpowder, to balance out the military techs there.
OK, I withdraw that. With our GA started, we want the FP now, to have more useful cities profit from the GA bonuses.
I also think we need to instigate war on the other continent now. I'd say stick to the original idea, ally the other 2 against France, gunpowder or not. Do Inca and America have gunpowder too? In that case, France is not going to make much progress either. If not, we may consider gifting them gunpowder, to balance out the military techs there.
Well, east of Breda is either Leiden, Lauwerskoog, or in some mythical town in the Viking lands we haven't founded yet.
I don't see why it makes a difference as to whether we upgrade in 2 steps instead of one. Same cost either way. I can tell I'm outvoted on this though.
Really, I think it's a pretty minor point. We've been doing dandy up until nowAlso, a couple of very minor notes on the south--our settler is actually under the mace army, a turn behind the work crew. I would have the work crew reconnect the road from Oporto to the east, so our army there can make a quicker return once it heals up. The settler will be along shortly and will connect THAT road up.
More generally, check some of my MM in our lesser cities.
That would imply either of those laggards have Invention. They don't.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Lauwersoog or Pasargadae would be the best site for the FP, according to CA 2, Leiden is too close to benefit much. There's nowhere else even close.
Similar threads
