TT01: Beating Demigod

[DWetzel]

Believe me, I am trying to think longer-term on this. It seems clear that our plans, whatever goal we seek, will involve some head-smashing of the AI, and to that end we need more cities, and good troop centers.

Given our relative lack of acceptable land, it seems that we'll do best to have our cities heavily specialized, at LEAST through the medium term. As I see it we will comfortably get three new cities in: the town by the dyes, the town by the FP wheat, and then a filler town by the bananas on the coast. After that we can probably grab a couple more cities to the north (maybe)--ideally, we'd take everything up through the peninsula to that tiny island, but I don't know how much of that we can get. It's not very attractive land there, but can be useful in time.

Which is why we need more workers ASAP, to get our limited core up and running quickly. We will have two very good military towns: The Hague and the dyes town. Amsterdam will eventually make a decent military center as well, but right now it needs to spew settlers as quickly as possible. That will leave Rotterdam (and the FP-wheat town) to create workers and random filler stuff for us. It may create some military, but that won't be its primary purpose for a long time (if ever); given that, a barracks seems a waste.

In fact, given this, I'm considering switching The Hague to a barracks right now (and Rotterdam to a worker). It'll be hooked up to the capital right around the time it hits size 2, so MP may be less necessary.

 

[DWetzel]

Well, I was awake, feeling pretty confident, so I played.

2150 BC Preflight: CA2, Notepad open.

As discussed, I switch The Hague to a barracks and Rotterdam to a worker, and MM Amsterdam to spit out the archer this turn. I think this is important to get our military AND production base going as soon as possible.

Tech: pretty self explanatory, nothing to do there.

Economy: pretty self explanatory, nothing to do there except keep an eye on the lux slider; we do get our money back from Portugal in 3 turns, which will help.

Hit Enter.

Spoiler :

2210 (1): Amsterdam archer-settler. Ease lux slider down to 10% for a couple turns (nets us 3 gpt). Worker irrigates wheat at Rotterdam.

2070 (2): Scandinavia has HBR. Worker finished mine at Rotterdam, starts road.

1990 (3). MM Amsterdam and Rotterdam for more commerce this turn. The second MP is unnecessary at 20% lux; if needed that can move to The Hague or escort a settler.

1950 (4): Amsterdam settler-settler. Rotterdam worker-worker. For one glorious turn, shut off lux (+14 gpt).

1910 (5): Lux to 10%. MM Amsterdam to keep it on 5 fpt.

1870 (6): Lux to 20% for The Hague.

1830 (7): MM Amsterdam for commerce. Lux to 10% as The Hague is now connected by road to Amsterdam.

IBT: Apologize to Persia about that warrior.

1790 (8): Amsterdam settler-settler, MM for 5 fpt. Rotterdam worker-worker. Iroquois start Colossus. Lux off.

IBT: Apologize to Iroquois about that warrior.

1750 (9): Persia has the gold (443). Move warrior from Rotterdam to mostly cover settler; lux to 20%. Iros just got writing and HBR somehow, catching them up.

IBT: Persia and Iros both boot us.

Perseopolis (Persia) completes Pyramids.

1725 (10): move some stuff, MM Amsterdam for 5 fpt.

And save.

A pretty uneventful turnset.

Wholesale prices for techs (from Portugal, our least annoyed neighbor): 90g for CB, 135g for Bronze Working.

Keep an eye on Amsterdam (and our lux slider); this requires pretty much every turn manipulation for maximum effect. With one MP in Amsterdam we need 0% lux at size 4, 20% at size 5+; this will change once dyes are hooked up.

Rotterdam might be taken off worker duty and put to a more useful task (like a MP or three) now that it's getting sort of improved, up to you.

SEE THE SCREENSHOT FOR DETAILS ON THE NEXT TWO:

1. I don't know what I was thinking with some of our workers, but what I'd suggest for the next player as a start is:

Move the lone one on the BG NW to the grassland. Move one of the pair NNW of Rotterdam to that space. Move the other worker to the Amsterdam wheat. Then have them all road. That should hook up dyes pretty quickly, which will be needed as we will be researching something pretty soon!

2. Note the spear-settler Portugese pair near Rotterdam. My preferred spot for our settler is NE of the FP wheat (we can perhaps cram in another city later--our dotmap had the settler ON the wheat, before we could see it). Our settler and warrior (on the FP river) both have tempo to get to that spot, if the Portugese warrior stacks don't get in our way.

 

[Bucephalus]

Believe me, I am trying to think longer-term on this..

My comment wasn't aimed at you personally, rather at the team.

You say that you are thinking long-term - what thoughts do you have beyond expansion?

 

[Spoonwood]

Lurker's comment: I don't play warmonger or continents, so by all means tell me I'm full of it. Beyond expansion I think Scandinavia should get targeted first. You guys don't want to face Berserks... hopefully, you can take them out/cripple them before Feudalism, or if not, upgrade to medieval infantries as soon as possible and then try to really get on them before they get Invention. Hopefully, that will net you a leader and an army. After that I would settle in and play soft-core "builder" until you get Military Tradition since knights/medieval infantry vs. muskets doesn't sound like a great idea... have a decent or good pre-build on the Military Academy, and then get armies out and clear the continent. After that either keep warmongering, or if you want space... settle in with lots of infrastructure builds and shoot for the stars.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Got the save, will play tomorrow. If anyone has any strategy, tips, pointers, instructions, etc., now is the time to post.

 

[ThinkTank]

Sorry guys, have been very busy. Here are my thoughts on mid to long term strategy. Conquest. Starting with this continent. Grab the space we can. In order to avoid big numbers of units, we don't want to fight an AI as their first enemy. So we should prepare the war with our target victim with a phony war against another one and an allinace with our target preferably tied with a peace treaty so we get war happiness too. Geographically I think our first target should be Persia or Vikings. Probably Vikings, since they have "our" horses. That would involve phony war with the Iroqouis and alliance with Vikes. We should start that after Rex, and the Vikes should be between us and the Iros. We likely also want to start a phony war with the Portugese at that time and ally the Persians, in order to avoid the Iros to buy them in.

What we need for alliances is something to trade. For that it is extremely important we find the other continent soon. This will put us in the position to be the tech broker between continents. If we can manage that position, our infrastructure needs to be primarily economy based, since we will be buying techs rather than self researching. So courts and markets instead of libs.

Short term: besides finishing Rex and preparing for war, top priority is some curraghs in the water.

 

[DWetzel]

I like that overall plan--except that I'd say we want to keep one AI as a consistent ally (until they're the last one left on the island). Portugal might fit that bill, for various reasons (they sort of like us right now, they're decently placed to fight both the Persians and Vikings, and I'm not exactly afraid of their UU when it's 1-on-1).

Totally agree on the curragh (I was sorely tempted to make one before the barracks in The Hague, but decided against it). I might suggest that our dyes town spew one of those out right away.

 

[DWetzel]

Though, I do think I'd go for Persia first--for one reason, large and pointy and recently completed.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I have played my turns, all went okay, and with a little luck, we could end up with 3 luxes and Ancient Cavalry. I had one demand, which I prompty refused...j/k. I caved with no quibbles. Our exploring curragh is on a suicide run, I wish the next player luck there. Techwise, we are 1 turn fron Philosophy, but we were beat to it by Persia and the Vikings. It might still have some value to the Portuguese and Iroquois. Anyway, here is the turn-log;

Spoiler :

Pre-Flight: CivAssist 2, Word running. Open the save, look things over. Everything looks fine. MM Amsterdam and Rotterdam to match build times to growth.

Civilian units:
Settlers 2
Workers 5
Military units:
Warriors 4
Archers 1
Ships:
Curragh 1

Press enter=>

IBT: AI moves are too fast to see.

Turn 1, 1700 BC: Settle Utrecht on the Dyes on the coast=>Warrior. Change settings to animate AI moves. MM to minimize wastage at Amsterdam, gaining a taxman for a turn

IBT: X-Man warns about our wandering warrior, I promise to leave soon.
Hiawatha warns about our curragh, same thing, (I promise to leave soon).
Portuguese block where I want the settler to go.
Another of their settler pairs show up at our eastern border.
Amsterdam Settler=>Settler.
Rotterdam Worker=>Worker.

Turn 2, 1675 BC: Move the settler north, move the worker to the wheat to hook the capital to the dyes (Why the strange gap in our road network?) Build road towards Utrecht. Raise lux slider to 20% to prevent riots, going to have to watch the sliders like a hawk.

IBT: The Portuguese now have both possible sites blocked and it’s really ticking me off. Writing arrives, next is Philosophy in 14 turns at -2 gpt, Tech Slider at 80%.
The Hague Barracks=>Archer.

Turn 3, 1650 BC: Hook up dyes to Rotterdam.

IBT: The Portuguese finally vacate the alternate site for our settler. Worker finishes mine near the Hague.

Turn 4, 1625 BC: Move our settler, hopefully the Portuguese have farther out ambitions for their settler.

IBT: Portuguese do not settle!

Turn 5, 1600 BC: Settle Groningen now=>Warrior. Exploring Curragh finds the reason Portugal didn’t settle, there is an Ivory tile. Odds are, they will get it, but I will try for it. MM to prevent settler from finishing early, delaying the settler to 2 turns, I can’t seem to get it in 4 turns. I am 1 fpt shy:Mad: I guess I am missing something here.

IBT: First demand, Persia wants 27 gold. Yes sir, yes sir, 3 bags full.(I give it).
Potuguese settler pair enters our territory, seems to be heading for our jungle patch, perhaps there will be Coal or Rubber there someday.
Worker finishes roading Wheat tile, now our whole empire has 2 luxuries.
Utrecht Warrior=>Curragh.
Oporto builds Colossus.

Turn 6, 1575 BC: Block Portugal somewhat, we may beat them to the jungle if I play it right. Begin irrigating wheat tiles. Lower lux tax to 10%, Tech to 90%.

IBT: Portuguese might just settle next turn, unless they want to go for the coast.
The Hague Archer=>Archer.
Amsterdam Settler=>Settler.
Rotterdam Worker=>Worker.

Turn 7, 1550 BC: Persia has CoL, so I get radical to try and get Philosophy sooner, turn tech slider to 100%, hire 3 geeks in Utrecht, The Hague, and Groningen to get it in 4 turns.

IBT: Iroquois settler pair moves NW of Ivory, Portuguese settler pair move on top of the Ivory.

Turn 8, 1525 BC: Philosophy gambit is DOA, Vikings and Persia have it. Other bad news, I settle Eindhoven now, in hopes of grabbing the Ivory with culture. Move a settler toward the jungle, we may win that race.

IBT: Settler pairs retreat, but who settles first might be interesting. The AI Probably will still get the Ivory, so we most likely blew our chance by a turn or 2.

Turn 9, 1500 BC: CivAssist 2says it is turn 60, so I will stop here before doing any more damage. Move jungle settler in place, lower tech slider to 60%.

Cities:6
Amsterdam: Size 5, growth in 3, Settler in 2 turns.
Rotterdam: Size 2, growth in 4, Worker in 4 turns.
The Hague: Size 3, growth in 7, Archer in 3 turns.
Utrecht: Size 1, growth in 2, Curragh in 6 turns.
Groningen: Size 1, growth in 2, Warrior in 6 turns.
Eindhoven: Size 1, growth in 19, Warrior in 9 turns.

Civilian units:
Settler 1
Workers 7
Military units:
Warriors 5
Archers 2
Ships:
Curragh 1

Contacts: 4
Persia-Peace
Vikings-Peace
Portugal-Peace
Iroquois-Peace

Research
Philosophy, 1 turn at +9 gpt

Sliders
6/4/0

One picture:

Spoiler :

The save:

 

[ThinkTank]

Got it. Let's hope that our curragh is Columbus quality, and our philosophy is Aristotle quality. Our army could use some metal, bronze and iron for example. On this tight map, I prefer swords over horses, but our chances at having iron seem limited.

 

[DWetzel]

A couple of hmmmmmmms from me.

1. I'm pretty sure that Amsterdam SHOULD operate somehow as a 4-turn settler factory (size 4.5-6.5). I'm not somewhere that I can open the save but I will be over lunch. It's not terribly relevant anyway since I can see us using maybe one more settler before we go military.

2. I dunno what our dotmap says, but the jungle settler looks ready to plop down right now. Where it is now it gathers in the remaining land tiles in our part of the world. That plus coastal - winner as far as I'm concerned. It'll blow chunks for a while but will eventually be a nice town.

3. It's time, IMO, to start planning our first invasion. Not that we'll be ready in the next 10 turns, but the buildup can start. Particularly Amsterdam, of course--though we will need a couple of settlers to re-settle the opposing city sites. I am assuming we plan to raze + resettle a couple of sites rather than capture and watch them flip back, as our culture is nonexistent.

4. Our tech situation is pretty bad, though getting Philo MAY help that. I'd trade it ASAP for whatever we can get, before Persia or the Vikes do so.

5. I'd swap the builds for Rotterdam and Groningen--have the FP wheat town spew workers rather than warriors, and the town with at least some shields spew the warriors.

6. Ivory is good news, but I don't think we have the ability to dedicate a town to the SoZ.

7. After the first curragh, I think Utrecht should go barracks and then military full speed, along with The Hague. Probably assisted by a chop or two.

8. My thoughts on our first target have shifted--I think a two-pronged attack on the Viking cities in the screen shot, followed by a resettling, defense, and peace, would be wise. Offing Copenhagen allows us to get those horses; Oslo would be just for intimidation factor. Then we can ally in the Vikes against Persia for Round 2.

Note this requires embassy with Scandinavia--in fact, embassies should be pretty high priority if we don't have those yet.

 

[ThinkTank]

My thoughts on our first target have shifted--I think a two-pronged attack on the Viking cities in the screen shot, followed by a resettling, defense, and peace, would be wise. Offing Copenhagen allows us to get those horses; Oslo would be just for intimidation factor. Then we can ally in the Vikes against Persia for Round 2.

I was thinking along these lines too. A short tactical war against the Vikes for grabbing the horses and 1 or 2 good town spots. This turnset will bring some clarity in the game I suspect. Will we get to the other continenet? Will philosophy have some trade value and enable us to acquire IW and do we have iron then? Will the Portugese settler settle? Will the group of 6 Portugese warriors resist the temptation of an empty city?

 

[DWetzel]

Did we win yet?

 

[ThinkTank]

Did we win yet?

We made some progress. Our curragh lived and met the French on the other continent. They did not have philosophy! This enabled a series of deals that gave us tech parity temporarily: after phil, we acquired BW, Masonry, IW, CB, HB, Myst, MM, CoL and Polytheism! That's kind of 1 turn research in this turnset. If we can keep that up, we have a chance. And hurray, we have iron!!!

Turnlog:

Spoiler :

0: 1500BC
Amsterdam does settler in 2 and growth in 3, MM to settler in 2 and growth in 2.

IBT
Lots of movement, Ports don't settle in the jungle and leave our empty town alone.
Philosophy comes in. Persia starts ToA.

1: 1475BC
Our curragh has lived and spots some land now, needs 1 more turn to survive at sea!
Arnhem founded.
2nd wheat near Amsterdam has been irrigated, I'm not sure why since we are doing 6 food there now. Does not harm either.
Rotterdam has worker in 1 and growth in 3 and it is size 2 now, in order to keep it size 2 I MM it to worker in 2 and growth in 2.
Portugal is the only one that does not have philosophy. Everyone has BW, Masonry, CB, MM and HB on us; in addition to that the Persians and the Vikings also have CoL. I sell philosophy and 101g to the Portugese for BW and Masonry, this looks like the best deal, and it opens up IW and mathematics (for cats) for us. Set research to IW in 5 at 100% (-2gpt).

IBT
Amsterdam: settler -> settler.
Ports and Iros start G.Light.

2: 1450BC
Our curragh lives and meets the French on another landmass. They do not have philosophy!!!
I sell them philosophy for CB, IW and 187g. Oh yeah, we have iron baby!
After this deal it turns out they only have Mysticism on us. Looks like we found our trading partner!
Buy HB from the Iroquois for 158g.
Buy Myst + 220g from the French for HB. This reveals that the French have Polytheism.
Buy CoL form Persia for 3gpt and 170g.
Buy Poly +28g from the French for CoL.
Buy MM + 168g from the Iros for Poly and CoL.
Sell Poly to the Ports for 107g, all they have, and they are the only ones on our continent that do not have Poly now.
Set research to literature in 13 at 100% at -5gpt, 330 in the box. Hope that the AI do not research lit but stuff like math.
Buy embassies with all tribes on our continent.

IBT
Rotterdam: worker -> rax.
The Hague: archer -> archer.

3: 1425BC
French have MM now.

IBT - not much

4: 1400BC
Persians and and Vikes have math now.

IBT
A lot of wonder builds start (MoM, GLight, ToA).

5: 1375BC
There is a Vike settler NW of Eindhoven so that (not particularly good) spot is gone. Found Maastricht on the floodplain NW of Rotterdam, a tight spot but at least it gives us 2 BGs there.
Iros have math too.

IBT
Aarhus founded NW of Eindhoven
Amsterdam: settler -> settler.
Groningen: worker -> rax.
Again a lot of wonder builds start (MoM, GLight, ToA)

6: 1350BC - Not much.

IBT
Iroquois declare war on the Persians. That's not too bad, 2 strong AIs fighting each other, this may lessen the chance they come pick on us.
Our curragh is sunk by a barbarian galley.
The Hague: archer -> archer.

7: 1325BC - Not much.

IBT - Not much.

8: 1300BC
Haarlem founded -> warrior. Literature in 4.

IBT
Eindhoven: warrior -> rax.
Incas complete ToA in Cuzco. No idea where they are.

9: 1275BC
French have monarchy now.

IBT
Amsterdam: settler -> rax.
The Hague: archer -> archer.
Maastricht: warrior -> worker.
Persepolis completes MoM.
French start HG.

10: 1250BC
End of turn set.

Picture:

Spoiler :

Notes to next player.

We have a settler in Amsterdam, it still has movement. I'd propose to grab a spot to the E of Amsterdam, even if it will get cultural pressure there. Possiby just grab the horses by settling on the hill there.
Tech situation: we have literature in 2. The French know monarchy, which is not known on our continent; they do not know mathematics, which is known on our continent. So once lit comes in, I would try to use that to get math, trade math and lit for monarchy to the French, and then sell monarchy for tech or a lot of money (the Persians and Vikings have a lot).


The save:

 

[DWetzel]

Well, that didn't suck.

 

[Optional]

This turnset was a good demonstration of where the strength of the Seafaring trait lies!

 

[ThinkTank]

This turnset was a good demonstration of where the strength of the Seafaring trait lies!

Yes, it does. Seafaring increases the chances of being able to get into the tech brokering position, due to the differences in tech development between the continents. On our own continent these differences come and go very fast because of the trading between the AIs.

However, we should realize that this advantage is temporary and it will disappear once the AIs on our continent also know the other continent.

Another problem of tech trading on our own continent at this point in the game is the fact that the AIs almost have no gpt to spend (this may change). So although it would have been possible to buy a tech for a fair amount of (possibly faked) gpt, it would not have been possible to sell it to others and get gpt back.

 

[DWetzel]

Right. I'd suspect that gpt situation will change once the AI get into non-despotic governments. Of course, hopefully we will commence crushing heads by then!

Which brings me to one point--is it worth selling the AI Monarchy when and if we get it? Given that to some extent we want to smash some heads, is it not better to let them suffer the despotism penalties for as long as possible? If it's gold we want, we can get that almost as effectively without trading.

(I don't have a formed opinion on this myself, just throwing it out there.)

 

[Bucephalus]

I guess it's me, then.

I'll try and take a look later and post some comments, though it may be a couple of days before I can play; I have childcare responsibilities now the school holidays are here. I work from home so I switch to doing that in the evenings, and being freelance I reduce my workload, but I still have restricted Civ time.

 

[ThinkTank]

... though it may be a couple of days before I can play ...

No problem. Since 2 weeks I am aware again how intrusive RL can be. And I have to admit that sometimes it can even be fun.