aronnax
Let your spirit be free
This can't end well.
Am I the only one who finds the term 'declaring autonomy' rather weird?
Am I the only one who finds the term 'declaring autonomy' rather weird?
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Turkey's Kurds Declare Democratic Autonomy
- Thread starter nivi
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innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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No. Looks like the old strategy of carving out some of the powers of the central government to a regional one. Kind of like the Basques got in Spain. And like those, some would be content with it and some would regard it as a stepping stone to independence.
r16
not deity
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ı suppose it was Lenin who talked of two steps ahead , one back . Our dearest seperatists at least half of them do not want a seperate country . They want to tire us to death and give up the country , to them . The rest , of the Barzan tribe ( yeah the guy who thinks he is president of his part of Iraq ) are for joining their kinsmen across the border . In the end they are all feudal and while ı would hardly be the correct the guy to critisise this all , they all look forward to Uncle Sam and his bunch to come and defeat the Turk .
what was the Arabic for that , Ehlen ve sehlen ?
what was the Arabic for that , Ehlen ve sehlen ?
I know people who have had their homes burned and forced to migrate to the city, people who have had family members killed by the military, been arrested and beaten by the police, this as recently as the 1990s and the past decade. The Kurdish language was only recently made legal and there are still some barriers around its usage. Anyway, that's not an excuse for terrorism but I can see why people would want more autonomy or even separation.
r16
not deity
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everytime there was a high profile investigation into politicians , or some guy with "foreign contacts" there was something in the East . It is so common to hear in Turkey that when those guys struck for the first time all the ammunition of the soldiers were under lock so that ... whatever . It is a fight against Turkey , not for the people's rights or whatever . They wanted to learn their mother language and culture , ten years of debate , they got their private schools/courses and everyone of them is now bankrupt ; ı gather there was a initial supplement of students for the foreign journos to see . They are people , just like you and me , that ı know , even as r16 , yet the game is based on lies and not only on the Turkish side . We are not to allow a feodal system replace whatever is in place . Especially because US of America draws a map and wants us to die , wither , get lost or whatever .
those nice people who feast their visitors as if it is the end of the world employ kids to collect garbage and one must watch a 5 year old beggar beat up a 4 year old under his command before bringing a new kind of democracy to Turkey .
those nice people who feast their visitors as if it is the end of the world employ kids to collect garbage and one must watch a 5 year old beggar beat up a 4 year old under his command before bringing a new kind of democracy to Turkey .
r16
not deity
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kurds can be spectacular , they will welcome with open arms and will go out of sanity to keep you as comfortable . They are nice as anybody as you can come across the globe . Yet one must assume there are good people in any group and there are also the bad . Those who are bad , if they discover you are vulnerable will no longer be the hospitable people that wellcomed you . And the point is of course for every 10 Kurds that will share his single loaf of bread with you there is one that runs the things in the name of his feodal overlord and sent the 10 Kurds who earn a single loaf and slightly more per day to sweep the streets of any beverage cans and the like . Nor there can be free market competition in garbage collecting unless you can match the amount of thugs they can bring to the streets . Heard from the guys who are in the coal face and witnessed on the streets .
as to conspiracies , ı haven't even started . Would advise not to bet against American plans , moves and actions , all anti , counter and against , when it comes to Turkey . It happens that ı actually lost money on betting a full scale American military invasion of this little puny country named Turkey would take place by 2009 .
in return Obama came here talking of the bright future we would have , don't tell it to anybody but it was a complete disaster . Considering it has been a Turkish tradition to watch far too quietly ...
as to conspiracies , ı haven't even started . Would advise not to bet against American plans , moves and actions , all anti , counter and against , when it comes to Turkey . It happens that ı actually lost money on betting a full scale American military invasion of this little puny country named Turkey would take place by 2009 .
in return Obama came here talking of the bright future we would have , don't tell it to anybody but it was a complete disaster . Considering it has been a Turkish tradition to watch far too quietly ...
Of course not every single Kurd is a good person. All I was saying above were the reasons they have to be angry with the Turkish military and government. I've met more than a few bastards of every ethnicity including Kurds.
You honestly thought America would launch a full scale invasion of Turkey?
You honestly thought America would launch a full scale invasion of Turkey?
r16
not deity
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there is a dean of an university who complained on TV , when ı was famous as an 150% idiot on a dedicated strategy site , that there were people who were driving for all out war between Ankara and Washington . Though ı wasn't named . For the ruling classes of my country anti-Americanism happens when ordered by Washington . That's why they consistently fail to see we are not for the Atlantic breeze or any variation and bend in various styles to prove to beloved Uncle Sam everything is OK and Americans can go on doing their stuff . Which is supposed to be over the top secret into the cosmos yet everybody knows . Except us .
r16
not deity
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am saying nothing particular worthy of paying attention , though Athens is fuming Hillary Clinton comes here all smiling , talks to our foreign service guys , Prime Minister goes out talking Cyprus will be Turkish province soon, and everybody will think we blew up , somehow , the Cypriot port for this and Greeks have been even cordial to Israel to prevent such a move , blah blah . Yet nobody sees an actual cooperation against the seperatists who are still there , waiting to take over whatever slice of country they will be allowed by the "Whites" . Meanwhile the police who neve fails to hear what the military plots against the goverment , somehow is out of its depth when it comes to well ...
loop am saying nothing particular worthy of paying attention...
loop am saying nothing particular worthy of paying attention...
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Not all Kurds are terrorists any more than all Muslims want to destroy Israel as a state. And it is quite likely that many Kurds feel that way towards both Turkey and Iraq. After all, many Israelis apparently wish to do so to Iran and any future Palestine, much less other Muslim countries. There are many Americans who feel exactly the same way towards many countries, and the US has done so before in the past, especially after democratically elected governments nationalized companies owned by Americans.lol - a right-wing guy says Kurds are brave and so you post up a google snapshot of media articles to prove that the Kurds are terrorists?
I'm not going to disagree with you - I suspect your motive is related to Palestine rather than the Kurdistan issueBut as far as I'm aware, the Kurds are not calling for the destruction of Turkey as a State, and are not racist against Turkish people/religion in general.
Also, the Kurds have been subjected to repulsive human rights abusives which include disappearances and torture of people who were trying to find a peaceful solution. My impression of them is that they are just a brave people trying to get justice, but I don't claim to know the ins and outs in sufficient detail to defend/judge any actions that are alleged as being terrorist.
And yes, much of this is indeed "racist" inspired, just as much as it is in Israel or anyplace else where two ethnic groups have longstanding conflicts.
Is it brave to stand up against your oppressors and try to seek justice? Many Palestinians certainly think so.
I am merely pointing out that many Kurds have no difficulty using terrorism to try to accomplish their ends, much like Israel, Palestine, or any other country for that matter. That ever since the neocons have been trying to overthrow Hussein since 1992 that Kurdish terrorism and human rights abuses have been largely ignored, as they typically are in any country which is our supposed ally. That the Kurdish terrorism against Turkey and even Iraq make the most of the Palestinian terrorism look extremely mild by comparison. That they have apparently even been caught trying to create "weapons of mass destruction" to attack Europe and elsewhere.
As Novakart pointed out, it isn't all one-sided either. Turkey has responded against the Kurds much like Israel has responded against the Palestinians and other Muslims, except on a much more limited basis. For instance, I don't think they have gone around assassinating various Kurds in other countries with relative impunity, as the Mossad has done on numerous occasions.
There really is no difference between terrorism and freedom fighting in most cases. Both sides use various excuses to try to rationalize their acts, but it is usually just so much rhetoric.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
For years I've been generally favorable towards an independent Kurdistan. I was quite disappointed when the US chose to try to keep Iraq as one nation within the borders that the Europeans forced on the region instead of letting the Kurds go free. They deserve self determination at least as much as the Palestinians, probably much more.
Cheetah
Deity
So some Kurdish autonomy the like of Catalonia et al.?
In time - and after more bloodshed of course - I think Turkey might be able to swallow that...
In time - and after more bloodshed of course - I think Turkey might be able to swallow that...
I don't know, from what I've heard the violence from both sides was worse in the past than it is now so if anything, things are stabilizing. I mean terrorist acts are still relatively frequent but not like before.
I guess it's hard to compare the Palestinian vs. the Kurdish issue too closely. Turkey has tried to forcibly assimilate the Kurds. The language(s) (Kurdish is split into dialects that are pretty distinct) was banned, Kurds were forced to take Turkish names and surnames (to this day I think it's a law in Turkey that if you're born there you must have a Turkish name) and some Kurds have surnames like Turk or Ozturk, Kurdish holidays like Newruz were banned. These bans, aside from the name ban which applies equally to other Turkish minorities have been lifted only recently.
Lambert Simnel
One across
Not really.This is something which has seemingly been missed by all the major western news organizations
Reuters AlertNet
Associated Press
My landlord is Turkish and he's getting a little insufferable. The place is now festooned with Turkish flags and he made a joke about tacking extra onto my rent if I mentioned Kurds. At least, I hope it was a joke, cause that sort of thing ain't in the contract.
r16
not deity
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- 11,295
there are young Americans who see the world in Uncle Sam's uniforms , with 24 dollars stashed in case they come across a Manhattan . And they have a modified version of the Noble Savage , too .
to expound on this weird claim , my country is a perfect specimen . Back in 2003 Turkish delegation was threatened , mocked and insulted all in the open to accept a combat deployment of Turkish troops into the heart of Iraq , to where ever this Felluce is and yet Americans worked on practically every MP behind the scenes to have the deal scuttled in the Parliament . So that the most modern American division would miss the war , the occupation of targets in the North would be delayed , and El Kaide would occupy Musul and two years would be added to the hell that was Iraq . LOL it as you will but it is exactly what this CIA operative says in his memoirs and he will simply be a reference when the time comes .
yet in contrast to the traitorous Turk there was the honest dependable Kurd who wanted to live free , holding his head high for millenia , and he courageously took on the tyrant of Baghdad . It was no surprise it would be a fun ride shooting Iraqis with guns or no guns . He earned his country and the eternal gratitude of the American . To the extent Uncle Sam conducted a few tiny "ethnic cleansing" operations at places that went by such names like Telafer to make sure that Kurdish lands would stretch to the Syrian border without a hitch . And the deserving people were protected from other tyrants . We had to show respect to the Kurdish authority to sell vegetables to Iraqis as the only road with a customs checkpoint was passing from the territory and American arms would have provided themselves with valour once again had we tried to open two other border gates .
our young American would have already figured out that the American motives in the occupation was to topple the Sunni elite to bring up a weak divided Shiite leadership that couldn't survive without Washington's good grace and it would involve breaking lots of eggs for this omelette . The war in Iraq ended with a case full of money to each tribal leader with a photo that showed him holding hands with an American officer . They , the Americans , just love the feodal structures ! Only the date was in a flux in 2003 . Yeah , hear it from the Yanks how the surge was effective and all .
but that doesn't mean a fly's rear end to the young American , he probably lost a couple of friends and saw others come home with missing body parts or mental ease . In the land of the Kurd he was safe . In the land of the others he was not . You see , the success story in the North of Iraq was all important . When things were not hot enough , Americans did go the fiction way and came up with Juba . Killed after 100+ Americans , he was brought back to reach 635 by the time the latest Wikipedia article was written . Americans , you know , never shy away from combat and were eagerly looking forward for the "enemy" to appear . As if it is not the American tradition to fill residential areas with depleted uranium if they hear more than 2 Kalashnikovs firing at once . One celebrated case , a money shipment was attacked , just like money grabbin' thieves would have done . All the reports talk of the elite enemy , yet all those bodyless limbs and limbless bodies checked afterwards could not bring up a single clue ; they just looked like Iraqi . Civilians too .
whatever the absurdity , if you ever come across a blog where American troops say anything against the oasis of peace in the North , just post it as ı am yet to see one . That's why the young American will be ever ready to talk against he whom speaks against . We will get anything starting from our oppressive regime and laws . As if Americans did not hold the keys to anything that ever happened in my country in the good old days . And the even better new days . Young American will scoff at the reminders how Carter was informed that "their boys " had made the coup in 1980 . It will be yet another example of Turkish paranoia when he is told that a four star Turkish general was killed when his plane was sabotaged on American orders . Ask the press and listen how he was for giving a little more leeway to the our own people so that bloodshed could be decreased . Watch the TVs in amazement to see how it is 100 % certain that military officers are kept behind bars with made up evidence , the most famous is the one when a coup maker wrote a document in 2003 about a company and used the name that company would take in 2008 . Be afraid of the Turkish military fortune tellers . Yeah , the fascist military getting it on the jaw again and again , only because America is just over the border , protecting the seperatist . Back in the day when the military was winning , as we were poor enough to know nothing apart from fighting and dying , Americans fired on our ships , openly supplied the terrorists with helicopters taking off from our own bases and when the Kurdish leaders complained about the language used and lack of immediate American correction , they even had their own helicopters shot down . A quarter of a Turkish lira to the first guy to find out what happened next .
now the young American will print this post and use it to wipe his nose . Or worse . As its value is only such
and it doesn't stop with favouritism . Forces of democracy find it hard to swallow that they were rather stupid to allow the game to proceed , they replaced the blue eyed boys of Americans and Europeans with the sword of democracy hanging right over the head of generals , if the guys did not comply , there are computer malware out there which no commercial anti-virus programme can notice . Yet it won't last forever , the bragging of this 2003-2008 thing mentioned in the paragraph above and many others will clear the blue eyed boys of the West , when there has to be a Turkish Civil War . Just the night ago a retired general shut up the commentator on TV when he talked of the laggard Army and the Member of Parliament had to watch it . Last year that wouldn't have happened . You know it is currently a brilliant idea to "expand" in the West to ease the pain of "losing" the East and we are all masculine speak . North Cyprus becoming a province or the President shutting up the translator in a visit of Bulgaria as people knew Turkish anyhow. We were to extend into the Middle East but Beşar Esad proved to be a too tough of a loser of a dictator .
and it is all normal for the young American , he gives us what we own and demands the favour returned by giving away what we own . Told no on the missile shield he comes back , now that we are no longer friends with Iran ; on cue . When told no on American naval presence in the Black Sea he supported a study to dig a canal to make Istanbul an island and he now talks of sending the ships in through the Bosphorus , 'cause you know he solved the issue of Montreoux . With one swift stroke , of a pen . When informed of the express thing to solve this Armenian genocide thing , he said yeah yeah and carried on with the same trite thing on the importance of Incirlik to the War on Terror and he continues to sit there . He laughs at the suggestion that nuken raus is a good confidence increasing measure as it prevents the notion of use it or lose it from day one . He even wants to sell us F-35s .
because he knows we are all idiots and would have to ask for his permission to be anti-Americans in real life .
to expound on this weird claim , my country is a perfect specimen . Back in 2003 Turkish delegation was threatened , mocked and insulted all in the open to accept a combat deployment of Turkish troops into the heart of Iraq , to where ever this Felluce is and yet Americans worked on practically every MP behind the scenes to have the deal scuttled in the Parliament . So that the most modern American division would miss the war , the occupation of targets in the North would be delayed , and El Kaide would occupy Musul and two years would be added to the hell that was Iraq . LOL it as you will but it is exactly what this CIA operative says in his memoirs and he will simply be a reference when the time comes .
yet in contrast to the traitorous Turk there was the honest dependable Kurd who wanted to live free , holding his head high for millenia , and he courageously took on the tyrant of Baghdad . It was no surprise it would be a fun ride shooting Iraqis with guns or no guns . He earned his country and the eternal gratitude of the American . To the extent Uncle Sam conducted a few tiny "ethnic cleansing" operations at places that went by such names like Telafer to make sure that Kurdish lands would stretch to the Syrian border without a hitch . And the deserving people were protected from other tyrants . We had to show respect to the Kurdish authority to sell vegetables to Iraqis as the only road with a customs checkpoint was passing from the territory and American arms would have provided themselves with valour once again had we tried to open two other border gates .
our young American would have already figured out that the American motives in the occupation was to topple the Sunni elite to bring up a weak divided Shiite leadership that couldn't survive without Washington's good grace and it would involve breaking lots of eggs for this omelette . The war in Iraq ended with a case full of money to each tribal leader with a photo that showed him holding hands with an American officer . They , the Americans , just love the feodal structures ! Only the date was in a flux in 2003 . Yeah , hear it from the Yanks how the surge was effective and all .
but that doesn't mean a fly's rear end to the young American , he probably lost a couple of friends and saw others come home with missing body parts or mental ease . In the land of the Kurd he was safe . In the land of the others he was not . You see , the success story in the North of Iraq was all important . When things were not hot enough , Americans did go the fiction way and came up with Juba . Killed after 100+ Americans , he was brought back to reach 635 by the time the latest Wikipedia article was written . Americans , you know , never shy away from combat and were eagerly looking forward for the "enemy" to appear . As if it is not the American tradition to fill residential areas with depleted uranium if they hear more than 2 Kalashnikovs firing at once . One celebrated case , a money shipment was attacked , just like money grabbin' thieves would have done . All the reports talk of the elite enemy , yet all those bodyless limbs and limbless bodies checked afterwards could not bring up a single clue ; they just looked like Iraqi . Civilians too .
whatever the absurdity , if you ever come across a blog where American troops say anything against the oasis of peace in the North , just post it as ı am yet to see one . That's why the young American will be ever ready to talk against he whom speaks against . We will get anything starting from our oppressive regime and laws . As if Americans did not hold the keys to anything that ever happened in my country in the good old days . And the even better new days . Young American will scoff at the reminders how Carter was informed that "their boys " had made the coup in 1980 . It will be yet another example of Turkish paranoia when he is told that a four star Turkish general was killed when his plane was sabotaged on American orders . Ask the press and listen how he was for giving a little more leeway to the our own people so that bloodshed could be decreased . Watch the TVs in amazement to see how it is 100 % certain that military officers are kept behind bars with made up evidence , the most famous is the one when a coup maker wrote a document in 2003 about a company and used the name that company would take in 2008 . Be afraid of the Turkish military fortune tellers . Yeah , the fascist military getting it on the jaw again and again , only because America is just over the border , protecting the seperatist . Back in the day when the military was winning , as we were poor enough to know nothing apart from fighting and dying , Americans fired on our ships , openly supplied the terrorists with helicopters taking off from our own bases and when the Kurdish leaders complained about the language used and lack of immediate American correction , they even had their own helicopters shot down . A quarter of a Turkish lira to the first guy to find out what happened next .
now the young American will print this post and use it to wipe his nose . Or worse . As its value is only such
and it doesn't stop with favouritism . Forces of democracy find it hard to swallow that they were rather stupid to allow the game to proceed , they replaced the blue eyed boys of Americans and Europeans with the sword of democracy hanging right over the head of generals , if the guys did not comply , there are computer malware out there which no commercial anti-virus programme can notice . Yet it won't last forever , the bragging of this 2003-2008 thing mentioned in the paragraph above and many others will clear the blue eyed boys of the West , when there has to be a Turkish Civil War . Just the night ago a retired general shut up the commentator on TV when he talked of the laggard Army and the Member of Parliament had to watch it . Last year that wouldn't have happened . You know it is currently a brilliant idea to "expand" in the West to ease the pain of "losing" the East and we are all masculine speak . North Cyprus becoming a province or the President shutting up the translator in a visit of Bulgaria as people knew Turkish anyhow. We were to extend into the Middle East but Beşar Esad proved to be a too tough of a loser of a dictator .
and it is all normal for the young American , he gives us what we own and demands the favour returned by giving away what we own . Told no on the missile shield he comes back , now that we are no longer friends with Iran ; on cue . When told no on American naval presence in the Black Sea he supported a study to dig a canal to make Istanbul an island and he now talks of sending the ships in through the Bosphorus , 'cause you know he solved the issue of Montreoux . With one swift stroke , of a pen . When informed of the express thing to solve this Armenian genocide thing , he said yeah yeah and carried on with the same trite thing on the importance of Incirlik to the War on Terror and he continues to sit there . He laughs at the suggestion that nuken raus is a good confidence increasing measure as it prevents the notion of use it or lose it from day one . He even wants to sell us F-35s .
because he knows we are all idiots and would have to ask for his permission to be anti-Americans in real life .
