1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

UK Politics - Weeny, Weedy, Weaky

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Arakhor, Jul 9, 2018.

  1. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    8,050
    Well health tourism is a thing and it costs money. If this helps pay for that, and perhaps even acts as a disincentive, then that answers the question that is allegedly being begged. And I already gave the answer to the part about them paying the same tax in the reply to Amazon Queen.

    I don't know if the specific level of it is reasonable, but I know that the principle is. The criticisms largely seem to be about the principle.

    Larger adjustments are surely more likely with new things. Established things like house prices, petrol prices, electricity, or even the cost of cod and chips can have some pretty large "adjustments" too. How it personally affects your budget doesn't seem to be relevant.

    Well it would literally be an adjustment, so yes. Whether or not I would think that adjustment was warranted would be another matter of course, but you know. I wouldn't immediately suspect a conspiracy without even looking into it though.

    I wasn't assuming they were all non-EEA migrants. The fact is EEA migrants are exempt, presumably for reasons of treaty. Whether or not you think that's fair is a different matter entirely, but since your own link suggests EEA migrants are a net economic positive that might also be a reason for exemption. The fact is it seems to be targeting the group that are creating the additional demand, which in principle seems fair enough doesn't it?
     
  2. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    8,050
    Brilliant exchange as ever aelf. Please continue to stick around and provide such stimulating conversation for many years to come.

    It's not that it was catty, it's that it was completely irrelevant and had nothing to do with what I said. If you want to make posts like that then go ahead, but we already have aelf and Senethro for that sort of thing.

    But also... are we really in desperate need of foreign health workers? And hasn't it just been announced they will be exempt from these charges anyway? So... the thing that is despicable, isn't happening? Okay.
     
  3. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    16,627
    Location:
    Tir ná Lia
  4. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    4,989
    Location:
    Climbing Kero Fin
    In the minds of Daily Mail readers perhaps. The evidence is that most immigrants pay more in tax than they use in public services. Immigants working here are paying taxes like everybody. They are then being charged for a service they may not use. That is despicable.

    The principle is we are going to tax you more because you are foreign and it will please the xenophobic element of our populace. That isn't reasonable.
     
    Cloud_Strife likes this.
  5. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    35,337
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    It isn't now, after a Govt U-turn just 24 hours after they insisted they were pressing ahead with the issue, and that rather suggests that we are indeed in desperate need of foreign workers, because no government willingly makes very public U-turns for no reason.
     
  6. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Messages:
    4,249
    Location:
    UK
    You seem to be mixing up my posts with other peoples, I didn't talk about a conspiracy.

    The principle is arguable, as I've already tried to point out. Your argument is that you think it targets the right demographic, but the only correlation you have is a vague negative estimate of impact on our GDP by non-EEA migrants. This isn't by itself a link to the NHS or its funding in the slightest. You'd have to assume that the same demographic was also uniquely some kind of burden on our health services as well, or offer evidence to that kind of argument.

    I also disagree that it's an adjustment. Doubling £200 to £400 is not an adjustment, by definition. Adjustments are meant to be minor; small tweaks. Not radical overhauls representing significant shortcomings in budget. I also believe the government is capable of extracting this money without hitting a demographic that doesn't seem to have proven links to being a burden on our healthcare system. It just seems to be a convenient scapegoat based on how easy it is to line up public sentinments against migrants. Even if it wasn't, I don't think it's going to help, because you're demanding money from the people least likely to be able to afford it. That's hardly going to help them become better-integrated into the UK. It's not going to solve any problems. Certainly, given the Conservative's tendency to sign off on privatising aspects of the NHS, it's kinda rich to source this from regular people regardless of who they are or where they come from. Speaking in terms of principle.
     
  7. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2018
    Messages:
    3,275
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Midgar
    The cruelty is the point
     
  8. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    16,627
    Location:
    Tir ná Lia
  9. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    35,337
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Let's try to steer clear of discussing other people, eh?
     
  10. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2018
    Messages:
    3,275
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Midgar
    I don't know, the Conservative party and it's voter minions sure do seem to ideologically like the idea of putting pain upon certain sections of society.

    What are you attempting to say?
     
  11. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    35,337
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    I'm saying "discuss the post, not the poster". What do you think I'm saying?
     
  12. really

    really Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,052
    Location:
    Éire
    So various senior ministers are defending Cummings. Its bananas.

    Suella Braverman MP
    @SuellaBraverman
    'Protecting one’s family is what any good parent does. The
    @10DowningStreet
    statement clarifies the situation and it is wholly inappropriate to politicise it.'
    The UK attorney general defending a blatant breach of lockdown.
     
  13. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2018
    Messages:
    3,275
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Midgar
    Do you think it's possible or even desirable to discuss a topic whilst maintaining a level of detachment that requires you to sacrifice both your own humanity and emotions and engage in psychic self mutilation, as if we are all robot?

    I'm trying to say
     
  14. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    35,337
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Better yet was No 10 blatantly saying that Durham police did not do as they claimed (formally speaking with Cummings).
     
  15. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,656
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    How does that work in UK Law ?

    Say Cummings is in court and the arguments used by Nr 10 discharge him.
    Is that then the jurisprudence that every citizen can violate the lock down rules because of 'Protecting one’s family is what any good parent does" etc ?
     
  16. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    35,337
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Well, she's "only" the Attorney-General, so she doesn't control the courts. She's responsible for advising the government and I think has some sort of oversight over criminal prosecutions, but judges still follow established precedent, whilst taking government guidelines into consideration.
     
    Hrothbern likes this.
  17. really

    really Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,052
    Location:
    Éire
    If I was a defence lawyer I would be using it.

    I should say she is the AG for England and Wales only. Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own as they have different legal systems.

    What does that mean?
    Who knows - the UK constitution is a make it up as you go along job.
     
    Hrothbern likes this.
  18. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    4,989
    Location:
    Climbing Kero Fin
    And its in that tradition that the UK government is making its coronavirus guidelines up 1 news conference at a time.
     
  19. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    35,337
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
  20. Colon

    Colon King

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2001
    Messages:
    734
    Had a glance at the front pages of The Telegraph and the Daily Mail. They don't seem to be behaving like Fox News would over a matter like this, which is a relief. (it's actually kind of nice to see the Mail's trademark BOLD HYPERBOLE when it involves someone you don't like)
     

Share This Page