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UK Politics - Weeny, Weedy, Weaky

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Arakhor, Jul 9, 2018.

  1. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Another gem from his statement was that he didn't seek childcare in London because he didn't want to expose friends to a potentially deadly disease... because his 17-year-old niece (presumably in Durham) had volunteered. Even Prince Andrew is probably face-palming at that level of idiocy.
     
  2. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    It's the PM really, the Chancellor is the chancellor of the Exchequer (finance minister). Currently Sunak, Boris has already kicked one out.
    Make no mistake, the tories are firmly under control. There are no barons willing to rebel now. Those who tried it last were kicked out of the party entirely. That had a salutary effect on internal cohesion. It may not last 4 years but for now it'll hold.
    Cummings stays, the conservative press is closing ranks around him and the PM, and the opposition walks out with another political defeat, having tried to make a big issue of a peccadillo.

    And, I guess, some of the political appointees in the "Church of England" will eventually be replaced. Boris (or Cummings if you want to see that one as the mastermind, I have my doubts) is no fool: he marks his enemies and gets rid of them later.

    There is no path to undermining the present government except on policy. Doing the long work of contesting its policy decisions and making it stick that different policies should be done. It's a path that only pays off within 4 years now. These "scandals" are distractions from it, sap the attention of the public to policy.
     
  3. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    If Cummings was as brilliant as you make him sound there, I'm sure he could have come up with excuses that didn't sound like a 12-year-old's "the cat ate my homework".

    You are of course also aware that the Opposition didn't drive this particular scandal, because if you don't, you don't appear to actually be paying much attention.
     
  4. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    Chancellor... yes... my bad... Chancellor is such a nice word :)

    And If the kill is not now... it would indeed be wrong to overcook the attacks with this incident.
    Keir Starmer has self-discipline enough for that.

    Stories like this one below will however stick in the minds of people. That is their reality.
    There is a thread of Tim now on whether, in how much, it is a virtue to follow rules.
    The cardinal virtues were put forward in Greek classical era to restrain abuse by leaders. A kind of proto-constitution for behaviour... not as rule system, but as aspirational system.
    We should be further now than those Greeks wrestling themselves away from tyrants

     
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  5. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    He doesn't need to. And it only drives home the point that the scandal is out of proportion. I've had more local affairs on my place, can't follow UK politics closely. But it has been all over the newspapers. I guess reporters there have to make a living writing something... too bad that this way they cease being seen as relevant.
     
  6. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    I think the problem the Tories have here is Cummings behaviour upsets natural Tory voters, hence the Mail and Telegraph both being critical of Boris.
    It also upsets people who haven't seen their relatives for months, been unable to attend family or friends funerals etc, otherwise made personal sacrifices
    Its not a major issue for me, Cummings has done worse, but people I know who voted Tory and support Brexit are upset about it, not just the media
     
  7. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    I voted Tory and support Brexit and don't give a fig about it. To be honest I don't see why there would be a link between those things anyway though.
     
  8. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    And this is where the ground gets tricky. What fraction of the population are those, really?

    Here where I like we didn't have a "hard locklown" as in Spain or Italy. From what I've seen the UK hasn't also. There are rules, there is police sending people back when they're caught breaking them, but people are not really being prosecuted are they? Ans most everybody breaks the rules in some way. Visiting some friend, congregating on the street in a small group to talk because there are no known cases in the village, perhaps even visiting a lover like that other one disgraced by "scandal" who resigned?Yes, you can change them with being hypocrites when they're the ones doing the rules. But if they're not shamed and scared into quitting, you can't make them quit. And can't make most people hate them, except those who already did. Many others will be thinking hell I broke the rules too...
    That's why I think making a bit issue out of this will backfire. Scandal only works against those who truly did something criminal, or who can be compelled in some way to resign. Otherwise you just teach them that they can ignore the media storms. And, increasingly, turn into the US this side of the Atlantic... bad political strategy for any groups who want to be effective opposition.
     
  9. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    An unsurprising anecdote, to say the least.
     
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  10. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    So Innonimatu believes that those people who won't resign should be ignored or they learn that they are untouchable, which somehow wouldn't be the case if they never face repercussions for their actions. Do you have any consistent opinions at all or do you make it all up as you go along?
     
  11. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    I'm lecturing you about political strategy, and why "the left", as in Labour in the UK in thsi case, is losing. Not about what is right or wrong. You don't fight battles you can't win. Not when you're out of power and hard-pressed ready. If others start those battles, let them don't waste time and political capital joining in those.

    Of course you don't want to hear it, or consider it. Instead you choose to hear inconsistencies and dismiss the message. Suit yourself. But get used to feeling frustrated.
     
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  12. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    Which bit is unsurprising? In fact... which bit is an anecdote? The only new bit of information in that post is that I'm not bothered about Mr Cummings going to Durham. I'm... reasonably comfortable with people being unsurprised by that revelation.
     
  13. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    So a situation that has almost nothing to do with Labour is somehow still one in which you find time to lecture us on why Labour is not in power?
     
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  14. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    When something like this happens, you excuse yourself and say you are so very sorry - see Austrian President van der Bellen a few days ago (he stayed too long in a restaurant after corona curfew). If it is so bad you have to step down - you do that so quickly that they can’t fault you and you get another job somewhere. The political sphere is large enough.

    If you have really big ambitions and are stubborn, stepping down might not be what you want. People that can’t accept reality then try to hunker down and make up an excuse. It doesn’t matter how ridiculous it is, you can hunker through. But you have just shot yourself in the foot as with such baggage, the ambitious career is over - at least in serious politics. You might be ok if you are okay with making a fool out of yourself like Boris Johnson...

    Cummings obviously has chosen the “it don’t matter how ridiculous an excuse I give, MY tribe will defend me” route. We will see how far that takes him.
     
  15. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    Well, there are two viewpoints.

    (1) Anything that doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

    (2) Dominic Cummings is regarded as a liability to be kept on purely to deny Keir Starmer claiming a victory,
    and he will readily be sacrificed as a convenient scapegoat for the next screw up whether it his fault or not.

    In my opinion, he would have been better to try to be a little bit apologetic, and sympathetic
    to others in lockdown, but it is the nature of the man to respond with Bravado.
     
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  16. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I think Britain had been falling towards third world status for a while now. Perhaps the fall there is easier than in the US, due to a livelier class divide with all sorts of cancerous undercurrents and more than willing doctors of the Harold Shipman type.
    Still, going by youtube videos and comments on british politics, I do feel surprised by the level of brutishness. Apparently "hanging on in silent desperation" no longer is the british way.
     
  17. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    All of it is unsurprising, and the anecdote that you, as a Tory voter and Brexit supporter (in direct contrast to the post above yours), didn't "give a fig". That's anecdotal. It's irrelevant, really, especially when you consider how unsurprising your stance is.

    A senior advisor to the Prime Minister has been caught breaking lockdown law that other people have been fined and I believe even arrested for. Regardless of how much you think the lockdown is necessary, which is an entirely pointless derail, we should at least expect a similar level of punishment - moreso, even, considering the fact that there's precedent (Ferguson) and the additional fact of Cummings' senior status within the party machine. Otherwise you undermine public faith in the lockdown itself, and / or faith in the system that upholds justice to those that wrongfully break it.
     
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  18. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    They are very few things a Tory voter and Brexit supporter gives "a fig" about.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
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  19. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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  20. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    I think that the ship's already sailed on that front.
     
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