Ukrainian Crisis thread 1.2

[Yeekim]

Yeekim, if you are going to criticize the Lavrov speech and blame him for lying, you'd better at least watch it.

Each of the cuts of this hrendyabliki taken alone don't even make a fully standing proposition. Don't you think it's OBVIOUS that a 44 minute video can't be shortened into 1 minute without losing vital context and pieces of phrases? Jesus.

You aren't getting the point, are you? I'm not in the least interested in which particular way he was distorting the facts and making a fool of himself, because what he chose to say was fully inconsequential. He got laughed off the stage. That's how far he was from convincing anyone in the room.

For the record, I don't doubt that Lavrov is a very fine diplomat. This just shows that even he can't make anything better of the script he's been forced to play.

 

[red_elk]

You aren't getting the point, are you? I'm not in the least interested in which particular way he was distorting the facts and making a fool of himself, because what he chose to say was fully inconsequential.

I'm absolutely getting the point. That you didn't watch the video and base your conclusions on a youtube parody.

He got laughed off the stage.

Maybe I'm crazy. I just watched the moment again - he says that the right of nations for self-determination is one of key points in UN charter (very funny, indeed) - then there are laughs of one or two persons in the background, followed by sarcastic remark of Lavrov. Is this what you call "laughed off the stage" and "making fool of himself"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF42dx3TowM#t=2205

 

[FriendlyFire]

Maybe I'm crazy. I just watched the moment again - he says that the right of nations for self-determination is one of key points in UN charter

South Ossetia - total population 52,000
Number of Deutch Volk living in Russia 1.5 Million

I am sure Russians support self-determination.

 

[BirraImperial]

*Das Deutsche Volk. And as far as I know, the Germans in Russia don't want to form a new country...

 

[FriendlyFire]

*Das Deutsche Volk. And as far as I know, the Germans in Russia don't want to form a new country... OR ELSE

A proposal in June 1979 called for a new German Autonomous Republic within Kazakhstan, with a capital in Ermentau. The proposal was aimed at addressing the living conditions of the displaced Volga Germans. At the time, around 936,000 ethnic Germans were living in Kazakhstan, as the republic's third-largest ethnic group. On June 16, 1979, demonstrators in Tselinograd (Astana) protested this proposal. Fearing a negative reaction among the majority Kazakhs and calls for autonomy among local Uyghurs, the ruling Communist Party scrapped the proposal for ethnic German autonomy within Kazakhstan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Germans

 

[BirraImperial]

My bad, didn't know about that... Nevertheless, the proposal was made by a minority group in Kazakhstan, whereas in Crimea and South Ossetia, the majority of their population wanted independence..

 

[FriendlyFire]

My bad, didn't know about that... Nevertheless, the proposal was made by a minority group in Kazakhstan, whereas in Crimea and South Ossetia, the majority of their population wanted independence..

Not sure if saying that 4.9 Million Georgians were for independence of 52,000 South Ossetia because of all the wars Georgia kept having with The Ossetians. (Iranian decedents I did not know this actually)
Is somehow more worthy of independence, then 1.5 Million Germans ?
Though being Germans, Russian would probably want to station at least 50% of there armed forces around them.
Just in case

Russia would support a tiny country consisting of just 52,000 people of Iranian decent for independence for I am guessing purely UN charter self determination reasons.
Then can you explain Transnistria which majority of the population is Moldovans ???

 

[Domen]

Number of Deutch Volk living in Russia 1.5 Million

How many? Not according to censuses:

"In the 2010 Russian census, 394,138 Germans were enumerated, down from 597,212 in 2002."

^From wikipedia.

Is somehow more worthy of independence ?

Any group which wants independence should be a majority of population in a certain continuous territory:

"Out of the 597,212 Germans enumerated in 2002, 68% lived in Asian federal districts and 32% lived in European federal districts. The Siberian Federal District, at 308,727 had the largest German population. But even in this federal district, they formed only 1.54% of the total population."

Then can you explain Transnistria which majority of the population is Moldovans ???

According to data from the 2004 census, Moldovans are less than 1/3 of the total population of Transnistria:

"In 2004, Transnistrian authorities organized a separate census from the 2004 Moldovan Census.[94] In total, in the areas controlled by the PMR government, there were 555,347 people, including 177,785 Moldovans (32.10%) (...)"

Also, prior to 1940 Transnistria was part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic within the Soviet Union.

 

[Borachio]

Useful information on how to tackle some of Ukraine's military hardware.


Link to video.

Sit up and pay attention now. This chick (vide 2:48 and 3:52) means business.

But remember, people, tanks, like Daleks, cannot go up stairs.

 

[LamaGT]

You aren't getting the point, are you? I'm not in the least interested in which particular way he was distorting the facts and making a fool of himself, because what he chose to say was fully inconsequential. He got laughed off the stage. That's how far he was from convincing anyone in the room.

For the record, I don't doubt that Lavrov is a very fine diplomat. This just shows that even he can't make anything better of the script he's been forced to play.

If his audience was a bunch of disrespectful children, I don't think that's his fault. It was a diplomatic lie (or a very technical truth), he wasn't trying to convince anyone. Diplomacy really couldn't give any less of a f*ck about "the truth".

 

[Godwynn]

It's cute that the Germans and French think they can solve this problem diplomatically. Just look at this picture, Putin could murder Poroshenko with his stare.

You can't argue with a madman. You can't solve this diplomatically. We in the West need to either meet force with force or just give up on Ukraine.

 

[red_elk]

It's a chance for Lukashenko to offer Belarussian army to serve as a peacekeeper force in Ukraine. This would probably be acceptable for everybody.

 

[LamaGT]

It's cute that the Germans and French think they can solve this problem diplomatically. Just look at this picture, Putin could murder Poroshenko with his stare.

You can't argue with a madman. You can't solve this diplomatically. We in the West need to either meet force with force or just give up on Ukraine.

I'd also stare at Poroshenko like that.
In any case I agree with the first phrase. It's cute that they want to solve this without making political concessions and involving the US.

 

[red_elk]

 

[Godwynn]

Just about sums up the current situation.

 

[FriendlyFire]

That is correct:
However the largest ethnic group is again Moldavian's. Though maybe it was the Ukrainians and Russians banded together into a majority gov at the time. Though these days Russians and Ukrainians being friends not so much.
Maybe the Russians can form there own country inside Transnistria ? Because the Ukrainans are going to be banding with the Moldavian's now.

Transnistria
Ethnic groups (2005)

32.1% Moldovans
30.4% Russians
28.8% Ukrainians
2.5% Bulgarians
6.2% others / unspecified

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

1.5 Mil Germans figure is from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Germans

Today, about 600,000 ethnic Germans are in Russia (Russian Census (2002)), a number that increases to 1.5 million when including people of partly German ancestry.

 

[Domen]

The number from this Wiki article is only a pure speculation, since as far as I know Russian censuses do not have two options for identity (so they don't say how many people identify as partly Germans). And also 2002 is not "today", but 13 years ago. The 2010 census reported only 400,000 Germans.

 

[Phrossack]

Whenever the Russians talk of defending self-determination, say the words "Chechnya" and "Circassia" and watch them change their tune.

 

[Kyriakos]

It's cute that the Germans and French think they can solve this problem diplomatically. Just look at this picture, Putin could murder Poroshenko with his stare.

You can't argue with a madman. You can't solve this diplomatically. We in the West need to either meet force with force or just give up on Ukraine.

Yeah, i am sure the west (?) is ready to go to full war against Russia for the Ukraine. They wouldn't do that even for Germany.

Btw: who is that person behind Hollande? (managing to make even Hollande look less than a clown). His pose reminds me of a painting of all the surrealists, by Max Ernst

 

[red_elk]

After 15 hours of talks

- Cease-fire starting 15 February
- Pullout of heavy weapons
- Removal of foreign troops and mercenaries
- Disarming of illegal armed groups
- Amnesty for rebels
- Decentralization reform in Ukraine
- Wide autonomy status for Donbass, including language autonomy and right to keep militia forces
- Exchange of all POWs
- Restoring of governmental social payments (pensions, etc.) in Donbass

http://rt.com/news/231571-putin-minsk-ukraine-deal/

Meanwhile Ukrainian forces are attacking Logvinovo, trying to break encirclement of Debaltsevo pocket before the day of cease-fire.