US Capitol Breached

[Verbose]

In what scenario could this motley crew of right-wing citizens actually force a coup?
Too few citizens.
No army.
No chance of success, surely?

Thinking about what MIGHT have been done by something like this – and the conscious application of violence here.

Trump DOES have at least possibility of calling on armed stalwarts, who supposedly (they keep banging on about it) are ready and willing to use force – Proud Boys and what not.

What he would need would be a clear plan for how to use a crowd to storm the government building, but then for how to have a violent hard-core of determined and militarized supporters, preferably at peace with the risk of becoming martyrs for The Cause, to hole up in some defendable and hardened part of the building that it would be paramount to secure asap.

IF a group like that could hold out, and if the POTUS was willing to work through volunteer organizations around the country that could mobilize if given a stand-off and direct towards both Washington, and against similar state capitals, then something MIGHT kick off.

But it assumes Trump is willing to try for actual civil war. And it assumes he would be willing to work HARD for something. And frankly while the former is somehow conceivable, the latter rules it out, from what we know of the man.

I mean, it is a blessing he is such a fool he actually seems to have thought becoming President was all there was to it, and once he was, he could do what he liked.

 

[sherbz]

I know its not exactly known for its moderation. But a quick read of the comments on Breibart News and you could be forgiven for thinking that a civil war is on the way.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Oh, them. Don't worry about that. For them a civil war has always been on the way since Obama took office.

 

[Verbose]

I know its not exactly known for its moderation. But a quick read of the comments on Breibart News and you could be forgiven for thinking that a civil war is on the way.

Radicalization is a process, and has to operate for some time on at least enough people.

The Trump brand of populism MIGHT still radicalize in a violent direction.

Time will tell if the Capitol was an end or a beginning of something?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Depends whether they can find a new Strong Man.

 

[Kyriakos]

There should be consequences for Trump, I agree.
And any deal should include forcing him to account for what "Covfefe" was.

 

[SG-17]

Time will tell if the Capitol was an end or a beginning of something?

It was the beginning of the end of something.

Whether that is Trumpism, the Republican Party, or American Democracy time will tell.

 

[Berzerker]

If the BLM people (or anyone else) stormed the capital and did the same thing for any terrorist motive, my position (kill them all ASAP) would be the same regardless because I'm consistent in my loyalty to this country.

With Bezerker, it depends on whether or not he agrees with the motive. As far as what happened on Jan 6, the terrorists by and large both looked like him and agree with him, hence why he would have defended them.

I didn't defend them and I dont care what they look like, I said they were vandals and should be prosecuted. That was my position on last year's riots too. I'm not the one here downplaying riots based on what the rioters looked like or their motives.

You're still downplaying it.
This wasn't just a bit of vandalism. The President incited a riot causing the deaths of 5 people as part of his campaign to overturn the results of an election he lost. A police officer died as a result of injuries he suffered doing his duty, a duty he took seriously despite being a Trump supporter himself and you dismiss what happened as vandalism.

We weren't talking about Trump, just the people who attacked the capitol. Yes people died, but I dont know if anyone other than the cop who killed the woman was responsible for a death. From what I've heard 3 died from medical situations, given the number of old timers in the crowd I suspect age was a factor. I dont know why the cop died, I heard he had a stroke after he returned to the station. He may have taken a blow to the head but I didn't know he was a Trump supporter. Biden effectively called him a racist though in keeping with last year's narrative rationalizing the riots.

People died during last years riots too, does that mean calling those riots vandalism downplays them? If thats the case, how many people here are guilty of downplaying those riots? If people were murdered during those riots - and some were murdered - are we required to call the riots something worse than vandalism? If I'm downplaying riots I'm consistent about it.

So if a thief entered your house and trashed it and stole several electronics like a laptop, cellphone, and TV... they are only guilty of vandalisim? Even if on your laptop and cellphone you have tones of personal info that you forgot to delete? Not to mention several people are DEAD.

They'd be guilty of stealing too

 

[AmazonQueen]

I didn't defend them and I dont care what they look like, I said they were vandals and should be prosecuted. That was my position on last year's riots too. I'm not the one here downplaying riots based on what the rioters looked like or their motives.



We weren't talking about Trump, just the people who attacked the capitol. Yes people died, but I dont know if anyone other than the cop who killed the woman was responsible for a death. From what I've heard 3 died from medical situations and I dont know why the cop died, I heard he had a stroke after he returned to the station. He may have taken a blow to the head but I didn't know he was a Trump supporter. Biden effectively called him a racist though in keeping with last year's narrative justifying the riots.

People died during last years riots too, does that mean calling those riots vandalism downplays them? If thats the case, how many people here are guilty of downplaying those riots? If people were murdered during those riots - and some were murdered - are we required to call the riots something worse than vandalism? If I'm downplaying riots I'm consistent about it.



They'd be guilty of stealing too

You are downplaying it by claiming they are just vandals. Vandals don't usually attack police officers or assault their countries seat of government.

 

[thecrazyscot]

Oh, them. Don't worry about that. For them a civil war has always been on the way since Obama took office.

It's been on the table longer than that. The Right has been agitating about "culture wars" for decades now, with the assumption that the Left is tearing the country apart and the Right needs to defend it. The violent part had just become more explicit recently.

 

[sherbz]

but I dont know if anyone other than the cop who killed the woman was responsible for a death. From what I've heard 3 died from medical situations and I dont know why the cop died, I heard he had a stroke after he returned to the station. He may have taken a blow to the head but I didn't know he was a Trump supporter.

The cop died after being struck by a fire extinguisher. Which was presumably either thrown or dropped from a height.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

just the people who attacked the capitol. Yes people died, but I dont know if anyone other than the cop who killed the woman was responsible for a death. From what I've heard 3 died from medical situations, given the number of old timers in the crowd I suspect age was a factor. I dont know why the cop died, I heard he had a stroke after he returned to the station. He may have taken a blow to the head but I didn't know he was a Trump supporter. Biden effectively called him a racist though in keeping with last year's narrative rationalizing the riots.

People died during last years riots too, does that mean calling those riots vandalism downplays them? If thats the case, how many people here are guilty of downplaying those riots? If people were murdered during those riots - and some were murdered - are we required to call the riots something worse than vandalism? If I'm downplaying riots I'm consistent about it.

They illegally occupied a legal building in an attempt to overturn the legal decision... This was a rebellion and other people like Koreans see this incident as such. This is way different from any other riots because other riots happened outside of government buildings.Do you not have any meaning to congress? Do you think of congress as the same as any other building in the US?
So if the White House burns it is the same as if your neighbourhood's house is burned?

 

[Bamspeedy]

Statehood for the parts of DC where people actually live wouldn't be unconstitutional. "DC" would just be the federal buildings in downtown, with the rest of the current District becoming a state.

Why not just give the residential areas of DC to Maryland and Virginia?

Only issue is the residential building of the White House, but c'mon, that family is obviously already represented in government....

Yes people died, but I dont know if anyone other than the cop who killed the woman was responsible for a death. From what I've heard 3 died from medical situations, given the number of old timers in the crowd I suspect age was a factor. I dont know why the cop died, I heard he had a stroke after he returned to the station.

5 deaths and information I've seen so far:

1. Woman shot by police-we all know about this one
2. Capitol police officer struck by fire extinguisher - this is the one that was on life support for some time after the protests, yes he made it back to the station, whether he then had a stroke then or not, the fire extinguisher was, at a minimum, a contributing factor in his death from the information we have. I'm no doctor, but suffering several head injuries it wouldn't surprise me if that can increase your chances of a stroke or heart attack.
3. 50+ year old man of a heart attack. Rumors are he tasered himself by accident.
4. 50+ year old man of a stroke. No indication or evidence he had anything to do with the violence. (was never in the capitol or on the steps outside from information we have so far)
5. 30+ year old woman trampled to death.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

From what I've heard 3 died from medical situations, given the number of old timers in the crowd I suspect age was a factor. I dont know why the cop died, I heard he had a stroke after he returned to the station. He may have taken a blow to the head but I didn't know he was a Trump supporter. Biden effectively called him a racist though in keeping with last year's narrative rationalizing the riots.

please don't try to downplay this event. This is serious and humiliating moment for US. Even more or equal to its defeat in the Vietnam war.

 

[Modder_Mode]

Imagine the "gracious" left spending all these years defending and supporting ideological street mobs that destroyed entire city precincts, looted, ransacked and vandalized businesses, attacked police and other law enforcement personal, rejoiced in the possibility of Republican politicians and the president and his family being murdered, encouraging ideological mobs to breach the White House, ransack it and murder anyone that gets in the way and unlawfully install their own leader as president. Imagine then trying to take the moral high ground on the events at the Capitol building and have the audacity to lecture others on what you think is morally justified, when it's YOU that set the precedent on what is deemed acceptable and unacceptable behavior, YOU set the standard for what a "protest" is all about.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

unlawfully install their own leader as president.

You saying Biden cheated in 2020 election?
You just lost all creditability.

 

[Traitorfish]

I agree that it was not a coup, but only because it was far from successful enough to be called a coup. The intent to prevent the incoming government from taking office by force was clearly there, so it was an attempted coup. A very poor attempt, granted, but still an attempt.

A coup isn't just electoral shenanigans, it is a regime change. Wednesday's event represent a bungled attempt to intervene in the electoral process, but the regime itself was not threatened, nor was there any suggestion that it should be replaced with a new regime. The participants had no goal beyond disrupting the senate hearings, and it's unclear how many of them understood this to be some part of last-ditch strategy to defend Trump, and how many were just acting out of rage and spite.

Ticks all the necessary boxes for a coup, kind of incontrovertibly if successful, I'd say. Which is why it was an attempt at a "self-coup", and it matters.

Not recognizing these moves, whether labeled "self-coup" or the workings of "illiberal democracy", for what they are is potentially very dangerous too.

These regimes are not diminished and discredited where it matters to them, in the retention of power. All of it is only a potential problem IF they balk at proceeding down that road once they have taken the first steps on it. Then they will look like right chumps, diminished and discredited indeed. But if they stick to their guns, they can win, and the power will be theirs do wield, and they tend to do so.

He's staggeringly incompetent. And a coward. And sad fantasist. It's a saving grace so far for the US, if not for Trump himself. But that doesn't change what he tried to pull here, half-assed as it were. Next time it might not be quite as badly conceived and executed.

The claim that is being made that Wednesday's events represent an attempt coup. If we concede that the participants had neither the means, the opportunity, nor the intent to overthrow the United States government, then on what grounds can we maintain that claim? On the suspicion that they would have liked to do so? That it seems like the sort of thing they would do? The "coup" becomes nothing more than a tone, a flavour, a sense that those participant in the "coup" are hostile to the institutions of the United States government, as if this sentiment was in and of itself treasonous and prosecutable.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Imagine the "gracious" left spending all these years defending and supporting ideological street mobs that destroyed entire city precincts, looted, ransacked and vandalized businesses, attacked police and other law enforcement personal, rejoiced in the possibility of Republican politicians and the president and his family being murdered, encouraging ideological mobs to breach the White House, ransack it and murder anyone that gets in the way and unlawfully install their own leader as president.

when has Democrats ever insisted to kill Donald Trump. And no don't use Antifa boogieman for it.

 

[Modder_Mode]

You saying Biden cheated in 2020 election?
You just lost all creditability.

Read what I wrote in chronological order "encouraging ideological mobs to breach the White House, ransack it and murder anyone that gets in the way and unlawfully install their own leader as president"
I'm talking about the incident at the White House last year. I'm not talking about the supposed wide spread election fraud.

when has Democrats ever insisted to kill Donald Trump. And no don't use Antifa boogieman for it.

When you say "Democrats" are you meaning Democrats as in the politicians themselves or Democrat supporters/voters? I am unaware of any Democrat politicians insisting on killing Donald Trump. I'm talking about the Democrat supporters/voters and yes many have insisted on the murder/death of Donald Trump.
What is the Antifa boogieman you speak of?

 

[Berzerker]

You are downplaying it by claiming they are just vandals. Vandals don't usually attack police officers or assault their countries seat of government.

Last year cops were attacked by rioters who destroyed their equipment and police stations. I dont have a problem calling them vandals. If you have another word you prefer, go for it. I think vandalism describes that behavior well enough. Just hold people to the same standard.

The cop died after being struck by a fire extinguisher. Which was presumably either thrown or dropped from a height.

Then someone will hopefully be brought up on a murder charge, but that doesn't mean we should be calling the people who vandalized the capitol murderers. BLM and Antifa rioters aren't murderers because some people were murdered during their violent protests.

They illegally occupied a legal building in an attempt to overturn the legal decision... This was a rebellion and other people like Koreans see this incident as such. This is way different from any other riots because other riots happened outside of government buildings.Do you not have any meaning to congress? Do you think of congress as the same as any other building in the US? So if the White House burns it is the same as if your neighbourhood's house is burned?

Thousands of buildings were damaged or destroyed last year, some of them were government facilities. As for their motive, I think they wanted to protest a legal decision that had not been made yet. There was a riot when Trump was inaugurated in 2016, I wouldn't accuse the rioters of trying to overturn a legal decision. It was a protest that turned violent.

please don't try to downplay this event. This is serious and humiliating moment for US. Even more or equal to its defeat in the Vietnam war.

More humiliating than losing the Vietnam War?

You just lost all creditability.