Vigilante "Get off My Lawn" Justice Apparently Alive And Well In Florida

[Takhisis]

Or in worse places. If a misplaced shot left you in a wheelchair for life and it was ruled to be self-defense because you tried to take his gun away when he threatened you with it

 

[illram]

Just manslaughter?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Open carry/concealed carry without a CCL is a crime in Florida as far as I know.

Once again, we didn't know if he had a CCL until quite recently, which it now turns out he did (see the article in this post). And I didn't know it was actually stuck in his waistband instead of being completely concealed until I read it in the paper this morning.

In fact where did the police actually cite the stand-your-ground law as a reason for releasing him?

They didn't. But they also didn't say that it didn't factor into the case. Once again, read this article below.

It seems to me it's just mentioned because it has been in the news recently.

I mentioned it because I thought it might be germane to this case, and it turns out that it clearly is.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/se...ing-may-test-stand-your-ground/news-breaking/

Trevor Dooley's appearance in court this morning on charges that he shot a man during a dispute over skateboarders is the beginning of what could be a closely watched test of the state's stand-your-ground law, local defense lawyers said.

Neither prosecutors nor Dooley's attorney, Ronald Tulin, are talking.

But Pat Courtney and Jeffrey Brown, defense lawyers who used to be prosecutors, said that the charges against Dooley and the time it took to bring them are an indication the state is anticipating a defense based on the controversial 2005 state law that gives more leeway for defendants to use deadly force.

According to witnesses, Dooley brought a gun to the playground across the street from his house Sunday afternoon and confronted Iraq war veteran David James, who had given permission to a 14-year-old to skateboard in the park.

While demanding that James tell the teen to stop skateboarding, Dooley, 69, showed that he had a gun in his waistband, deputies said. Then he cursed at James, 41, and walked away.

James then "called out to the suspect, questioning his display of a firearm," according to a sheriff's office report. Dooley turned around and pointed the gun at James, who lunged for it. As they struggled over the gun, the men fell to the ground, the gun went off and James was shot once in the chest, killing him as his 8-year-old daughter watched.
Despite public outcry and bewilderment expressed by James' family, 48 hours passed before Dooley was arrested. Dooley was charged with manslaughter, as well as improper exhibition of a firearm and openly carrying a firearm.

The additional charges, Courtney and Brown said, were likely made because the prosecution wants to prove Dooley was not acting within the law when he was standing his ground. Such a defense would be brought up at a preliminary hearing in which a judge would hear arguments from both sides about whether the law applies, the lawyers said.

Unlike the standard self-defense law, which requires that someone retreat from the threat of force, the stand-your-ground defense allows deadly force if it can be proven the defendant was feeling threatened and was not committing a crime when standing his ground, Brown said.

Dooley had a permit to carry a concealed weapon. But the prosecution will argue that because Dooley first showed off his gun and then pulled it out before shooting James, he was committing a crime when he was standing his ground regardless of whether he felt threatened, Courtney said.

At a news conference Tuesday, Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office Chief Deputy Jose Docobo took it a step further, saying Dooley was responsible because, even though James lunged at him, Dooley pulled the trigger.

About the same time Tuesday at her Valrico home, James' widow, Kanina, said at a news conference she wants Dooley to be charged with first-degree murder.

However, Dooley was likely charged with manslaughter because of the circumstances, said Courtney and Brown, who have no inside knowledge and was only going on what investigators provided in their report.

"They don't believe they can show there was an intentional homicide, that he meant to kill the man," Courtney said. "So first-degree murder is not appropriate."

Neither is felony murder, Courtney said, because investigators said Dooley was not committing any type of felony when James was killed. Second-degree murder doesn't apply either because the killing wasn't done in the heat of passion, Courtney said.

"So it would appear from the investigators and their review that this is the highest charge they can prove," Courtney said.

To make any kind of self-defense argument, Dooley or someone else will have to take the stand and testify that Dooley felt threatened with deadly force, said Brown.

Investigators said they found a pocket knife at the scene, but there was no indication it belonged to James.

"The knife will come into play," Brown said. "You don't have to have a deadly weapon, but a reasonable belief that (James) was armed. (Dooley) will have to get on the stand and say he thought (James) was armed with a knife, feared for his life and was defending himself."

As the article clearly shows, Dooley may still very well use it as his defense as many others have done, especially since today's paper made it clear that it was Dooley who was trying to walk away when James confronted him about the gun he had in his waistband instead of the other way around. And that a knife was indeed found at the scene.

Then we'd have a thread about the insane Iraqi war veteran who went berserk and killed a sweet elderly school bus driver who was being terrorized by punk skateboarders.

Ironically, it is more like one person will raise a completely legitimate point, and someone typically from the far-right will try to attack his credibility instead of actually addressing the issues.

Ultimately the bad guy is in jail and going to trial despite the stand-your-ground law.

"Bad guys" have already been released due to this law ,and others are now using it as their defense. See the articles I posted above for details.

Edit: And yeah murderers have always used self-defense as an excuse. Sometimes they get away with it and sometimes they don't. No reason to throw every case of legitimate self-defense under the bus.

I never claimed that should be the case, now have I? But I do think stand-your-ground goes far beyond that. And as the articles I have posted in this thread show, it is now being abused as a means of defense for activities which would have clearly been considered to be crimes before it was passed.

I really see nothing wrong with the Castle Doctrine law as it already existed, even though I think it goes too far in some cases by allowing citizens to shoot people who are engaged in non-violent felonies where there is clearly no threat to life. I think the person with the firearm should have to try to retreat before using it in self-defense. This new law is turning Florida and other states which have passed it into a veritable Wild West.

We don't need more armed confrontation between people who are having arguments. We clearly need less.

 

[Leonel]

The guy sounds like a mental case. Paranoid something.

An armed society maybe a polite society, but it's not polite to wave your gun around willy nilly.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The trouble is that you are describing a heck of a lot of people. Vigilanteism is quite common in this country, especially amongst "law and order" types who own guns.

We don't need them taking the law into their own hands when some kid rides a skateboard where he isn't supposed to be doing so. If they have a legitimate problem, they should refer it to the appropriate people to handle. In this particular case, it shouldn't have even involved law enforcement since skateboarding on the basketball court was a violation of the community bylaws. Dooley should have brought it up at the next homeowners' meeting. But the last thing he should have done is to stick a handgun in his pants and try to "uphold the law".

 

[JollyRoger]

So much more the alleged new vigilante law...

Dooley was arrested at his Valrico home at 3:30 p.m. Tuesday afternoon on the following charges:

* One count of Manslaughter
* One count of Improper Exhibition of a firearm
* One count of openly carrying a Firearm

So much for the 2nd Amendment...

 

[Skwink]

Heck, I'm not going anywhere near his lawn!

I'm not saying it was right to shoot anybody over it, but maybe the kid shouldn't have been skateboarding there .

 

[Traitorfish]

So much for the 2nd Amendment...

Well, he wasn't exactly part of a well-regulated militia.

 

[Skwink]

Well, he wasn't exactly part of a well-regulated militia.

That we know of.......

 

[cegman]

So much for the 2nd Amendment...

I'm sorry but the reason to have a gun like that isn't to walk up to someone all gangster like and flash your firearm.

Now i admit that is probably a slight exaggeration to what this man did but you have no reason for another person to know you are carrying a firearm.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

The question I want to ask is how the skateboarder was bothering him so badly that he had to leave his house and wave a gun around at him.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm sorry but the reason to have a gun like that isn't to walk up to someone all gangster like and flash your firearm.

Now i admit that is probably a slight exaggeration to what this man did but you have no reason for another person to know you are carrying a firearm.

I agree.

The question I want to ask is how the skateboarder was bothering him so badly that he had to leave his house and wave a gun around at him.

Why do people drive the speed limit in the left lane of the interstate, usually pacing someone going the same speed in the right lane?

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Why do people drive the speed limit in the left lane of the interstate, usually pacing someone going the same speed in the right lane?

To be weird?

 

[Onionsoilder]

So much for the 2nd Amendment...

The 2nd amendment gives you the right to own and carry a gun. It does not give you the right to point a loaded gun at someone over a minor disagreement. Any firearm safety class teaches you not to point a gun at anything you don't intend to shoot.

 

[Formaldehyde]

To be weird?

I think vigilanteism is indeed weird.

Any firearm safety class teaches you not to point a gun at anything you don't intend to shoot.

In this particular case, he did.

 

[amadeus]

I agree.

Your point?

 

[Skwink]

Your point?

Office Employees get out their M-16's when the DOW is down.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Your point?

Why is he all gansta like flashing his gun around?

 

[amadeus]

Why is he all gansta like flashing his gun around?

Why do you care? This streak of social conservatism isn't like you, is it?

 

[Skwink]

Why is he all gansta like flashing his gun around?

I don't think he is going for gansta there...