[RD] What does free speech mean?

[uppi]

In my view the Germans themselves chose to make the enemies of the Nazis the enemies of the German people by overwhelmingly supporting the Nazis.

I'm certainly not saying I think the Allies should have killed 8 million people after the war was over but I do think you ought to be a little more careful about how you express your opposition to that idea.

Overwhelmingly? I think you should be a little more careful with your history.

 

[Lexicus]

Overwhelmingly? I think you should be a little more careful with your history.

Yes, of course, how could I forget the civil war that broke out when Hitler launched a criminal war of aggression against Poland? oh wait

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Different situation. No one likes pedophiles,like it or not facism is political.

what the actual ****

 

[MaryKB]

Fascism is a disease.

 

[Socrates99]

Yes, of course, how could I forget the civil war that broke out when Hitler launched a criminal war of aggression against Poland? oh wait

Hypothetically speaking, if Trump were to invade Venezuela do you think there'd be a civil war here even though I'd say a majority would oppose that action. He vetoed the War Powers act that would pull us out of our complicity in war crimes in Yemen. No civil war here even though the majority of the legislature had supported that bill.

That's something to fear, a minority party gaining power, especially control over the military. Look at Bolivia. The woman who's usurped Alvo wasn't even the second most popular. Her party only received 4% of votes in the last election but the military and police are behind her.

It's not like there wasn't resistance in Germany, there was the night of the long Knives, the Reichstag fire. German communists did fight back, so did moderates under the Three Arrows. They were just subdued.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's not unique to CFC. See the recent controversy about Tumblr banning all adult content (from what I've been told, the porn-bots are still doing pretty well though). And a decade ago there was the Strikethrough where a lot of LiveJournal accounts were suspended.

Yah. It's weird. Honest discussion/sharing about sexual desire is in a really effed up spot on the internet. Young men think about sex constantly. From personal experience, middle aged men think about sex less frequently, but that's the difference between like once every 15 seconds and like once every two to ten minutes. It takes up an enormous amount of brain space. Yes, not everybody. It's certainly not a flaw to have lower libido, but nor is it a personal failing to have a high one. So we have this situation where a lot of mostly polite/public avenues where people would normally talk about desire, not entirely anonymously(or not at all) and not entirely explicitly in order to share this significant portion of their mental existence... shunted into areas where the conversation is expressly explicit. There is a big mental state difference between the people in a shop with a swimsuit calendar and people in a strip joint. With the internet a lot of it seems to be that if you miss the shop, you can either go to a lecture hall or a nudie bar, and I don't think that's great for people.

 

[Zardnaar]

Overwhelmingly? I think you should be a little more careful with your history.

Yeap Nazis only win a out 1 in 3 votes.

Strangely enough the Gestapo did internal polling on public discontent that the government did pay attention to.

They used a large amount of propaganda and money to get that approval rating up.

They had less secret police per capita than East Germany, USSR, several Warsaw Pact. They tolerated more dissent up to a point they didn't purge the rank and file of the communist party.

It's also why they didn't fully mobilise the economy until post Stalingrad.

 

[Lexicus]

It's not like there wasn't resistance in Germany, there was the night of the long Knives, the Reichstag fire. German communists did fight back, so did moderates under the Three Arrows. They were just subdued.

Yeah, and they lost, and there was no significant resistance to Hitler afterwards. There were the army officers plotting to kill him, of course, but there's a reason none of those plots came to anything and there is every indication that those officers would have largely committed the same crimes as the Nazis did.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

It's not unique to CFC. See the recent controversy about Tumblr banning all adult content (from what I've been told, the porn-bots are still doing pretty well though). And a decade ago there was the Strikethrough where a lot of LiveJournal accounts were suspended.

In fact, I found an article actually comparing the two:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/6/18127869/tumblr-livejournal-porn-ban-strikethrough

And it makes sense from a corporate perspective. Yahoo famously bought Tumblr for more than a billion dollars in 2013, presumably as an infusion of youths to eventually sell ads against. Three years later, Yahoo wrote down its purchase to the tune of $482 million. This year, Verizon moved all of Yahoo’s properties into the content umbrella corporation Oath. The problem is simple: content that isn’t safe for work is hard to monetize, and Tumblr’s future has been in doubt since the day it was purchased. What’s a social network that can’t make money? Dead.

It’s telling that the same year Strikethrough happened, Six Apart sold LiveJournal to a Russian media company.

 

[MaryKB]

Yah. It's weird. Honest discussion/sharing about sexual desire is in a really effed up spot on the internet. Young men think about sex constantly. From personal experience, middle aged men think about sex less frequently, but that's the difference between like once every 15 seconds and like once every two to ten minutes. It takes up an enormous amount of brain space. Yes, not everybody. It's certainly not a flaw to have lower libido, but nor is it a personal failing to have a high one. So we have this situation where a lot of mostly polite/public avenues where people would normally talk about desire, not entirely anonymously(or not at all) and not entirely explicitly in order to share this significant portion of their mental existence... shunted into areas where the conversation is expressly explicit. There is a big mental state difference between the people in a shop with a swimsuit calendar and people in a strip joint. With the internet a lot of it seems to be that if you miss the shop, you can either go to a lecture hall or a nudie bar, and I don't think that's great for people.

Find a way to talk about your sexual desire without turning women into sex objects, and you'll be perfectly fine.

But nah, men being able to do whatever you want whenever you want without any accountability is much more important than women being able to feel comfortable and safe as equals

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, and they lost, and there was no significant resistance to Hitler afterwards. There were the army officers plotting to kill him, of course, but there's a reason none of those plots came to anything and there is every indication that those officers would have largely committed the same crimes as the Nazis did.

If the Nazis weren't around they wouldn't have done the Holocaust etc.

They did privately monitor some if the Nuremburg Nazis and what they said in private. They didn't know the scale of the holocaust. Goring in private said something like Himmler's doomed us.

They knew Jews were being murdered en masse but thought it was a few hundred thousand.

Average German knew less, they generally realized bad things were happening but even if they cared there's not anything they could do. Most people just wanted to survive the war after Stalingrad. The higher up Nazis procured cyanide pills from January 44.

The death camps weren't located in Germany, no internet, no freedom of the press, and no way to publically express your opinion without risk of being sent to a camo or penal battalion.

 

[Farm Boy]

Find a way to talk about your sexual desire without turning women into sex objects, and you'll be perfectly fine.

But nah, men being able to do whatever you want whenever you want without any accountability is much more important than women being able to feel comfortable and safe as equals

This right here. This is the fudged up bit that comes with talking about desire openly on the internet outside the lecture hall or the porn site.

 

[MaryKB]

This right here. This is the ****ed up bit that comes with talking about desire openly on the internet outside the lecture hall or the porn site.

No, you and yours are the ****ed up bit. Sorry you can't just do whatever you want anymore regardless of how others are affected.

Again, you can find a way to talk about your desire without demeaning women or making women feel uncomfortable/unsafe.

Plenty of guys can do that. Your inability to is your problem, not mine.

Moderator Action: There is no need for unprovoked attacks like this. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Zardnaar]

Find a way to talk about your sexual desire without turning women into sex objects, and you'll be perfectly fine.

But nah, men being able to do whatever you want whenever you want without any accountability is much more important than women being able to feel comfortable and safe as equals

Women are a bit more ahead socially than USA. They tend to talk like the men here. In the 90s I learnt a lot listening to them talk.

My older brother gave me the male version of the facts of Life, his girlfriend and her friends filled me in on the female PoV. They were 3-4 years older than me.

Your idea of liberated women they tend to act like men.

 

[Farm Boy]

No, you and yours are the ****ed up bit. Sorry you can't just do whatever you want anymore regardless of how others are affected.

Again, you can find a way to talk about your desire without demeaning women or making women feel uncomfortable/unsafe.

Plenty of guys can do that. Your inability to is your problem, not mine.

There's the switch. You reiterate the first sentence of post #191, something I think we should all strive to achieve. But you included the second sentence in that post too. You meant to **** in this well, and you have done.

 

[MaryKB]

Women are a bit more ahead socially than USA. They tend to talk like the men here. In the 90s I learnt a lot listening to them talk.

My older brother gave me the male version of the facts of Life, his girlfriend and her friends filled me in on the female PoV. They were 3-4 years older than me.

Your idea of liberated women they tend to act like men.

No, that's your idea. Once again you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. You have no idea what women want, please don't speak for me.

 

[Socrates99]

Yeah, and they lost, and there was no significant resistance to Hitler afterwards. There were the army officers plotting to kill him, of course, but there's a reason none of those plots came to anything and there is every indication that those officers would have largely committed the same crimes as the Nazis did.

The thing is they were a minority party with military support. There are examples of resistance but they were squashed by force. I dont see it being much different here if the GoP went full on fascist. A lot of the centrists would go along or offer weaksauce #resistance until, oops, now we're too powerless to resist. Thatd only leave the people you refer to as "tankies" to actually resist and they'd get squashed pretty fast. It doesn't mean that the majority would be going along with it. It just means that the capability to fight against a modern military and fascist secret police isn't there.

Most Nazi atrocities were secret right up until the end of the war. The German people generally thought Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc were in camps similar to the Japanese internment camps in the US. The mass extermination was exposed by soviet troops as they marched to Berlin.

The majority of germans weren't complicit. They were mostly impotent and/or ignorant. The military is hierarchical and will often fall in line with power. They follow the COs and I think itd be fair to say the majority of german COs were nazi collaborators. Makes sense since Hitler built his movement on the backs of WWI vets.

 

[Lexicus]

The thing is they were a minority party with military support.

Every historian I've ever read who deals with the period is in agreement that a large majority of Germans supported Hitler after the reclamation of the Rhineland and straight down to the end of the war.

The majority of germans weren't complicit.

Completely false IMO. I would be interested to hear you cite serious historians who agree with any of the factual claims you're making.

they didn't purge the rank and file of the communist party.

Yeah, that was actually among the first things they did. But of course, hearing the facts won't stop you repeating the same garbage over and over...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Is anyone actually advocating for the government stepping in and restricting free speech or are we just advocating me exercising my free speech and asking you tube and co to not support this kind of hate speech?

Problem is that YT wrongly identifies "hate speech" (objectively so, its bots are pretty trash), censors people who showcase publicly available articles from mainstream media (whistleblower's name), creates vague standards and yet still manages to objectively apply them inconsistently.

This is less a matter of free speech and more that YT is provably behaving dishonestly/fraudulently and lying about doing so. The way they're handling garbage COPPA interpretation is itself garbage, too.

The proper thing for YT to do would be to make clear rules and clear punishment for violating those rules. Not randomly censor people for "hate speech" while refusing to even disclose what specifically met their hidden standard.

Also note that if YT/Twitter/facebook/etc can be considered targets for "election meddling" despite being private firms, it is not coherent to then claim they're private firms that can censor as they please. If that were true, allegations of election meddling on these platforms would be irrelevant...

This mumbo jumbo about campuses or internet companies violating free speech is bogus. If the private venues view some speakers as offensive they aren't obligated to host them because of free speech.

See above, and then remember that if I happen to be in power I could claim everything you say w/o exception is "hate speech" and oust you in principle according to what you're saying.

Who cares if you didn't expressly violate any specific clause in my ToS? I'm a publicly traded private company so it's fine if I don't uphold my own standards right?

Yes, of course, how could I forget the civil war that broke out when Hitler launched a criminal war of aggression against Poland? oh wait

It's not easy to fight an armed military bare-handed.

 

[innonimatu]

It's not easy to fight an armed military bare-handed.

It is if you're part of the military. The military could either have followed Hitler, be nazis, or turned against him. They followed him. A handful tried to kill him only after it was obvious that the war was lost, and in an attempt to preserve their own positions as the military of Germany from total defeat. It wasn't because they were morally offended at all the war crimes, it was because they were losing the war that even those finally moved.

Most Nazi atrocities were secret right up until the end of the war. The German people generally thought Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc were in camps similar to the Japanese internment camps in the US. The mass extermination was exposed by soviet troops as they marched to Berlin.

The majority of germans weren't complicit. They were mostly impotent and/or ignorant. The military is hierarchical and will often fall in line with power. They follow the COs and I think itd be fair to say the majority of german COs were nazi collaborators. Makes sense since Hitler built his movement on the backs of WWI vets.

My problem with it is how the officers went unpunished, thus passing the impression that some of the nazis were not that bad.
It took lots of manpower to murder millions of people. There were millions of german soldiers who received criminal orders to murder civilians, they knew about that and most followed orders when told to. I guess that generally they paid for it: lots of them ended up dead or prisoner and forced to at least repair some of the damage they had done. Also, soldiers might not have been able to rebel in the context of WW2. But if most officers had opposed those orders they could not have been implemented. They followed them. They were war criminals. Many of those murderous officers went on to be officers in the "new germany", their past "cleansed". Anyway, they're dead or senile now, and good riddance. But the whole abomination should be kept in mind, especially as there are people foolish enough to say they're nazis now. How can that happen? I don't think they know the full history of what the nazis did.

Moving on... On the freedom of the press thing, another fact is that this freedom is the freedom of whomever owns a press. The internet did made a difference in that the cost of a press can be much, much lower. But then some companies managed to get into the place of gatekeepers of most content. How can that be fixed, when it is people who willingly play into their hands?