What is Sharia Law

I don't know much about Sharia, but if a law can be interpreted the way it's interpreted in Saudi Arabia(and it doesn't matter if it's interpreted less strictly elsewhere) then it's not a law I think it's worth supporting. If the law is ambiguous then it's a problem with the law.
 
While trying to be respectful, but responsive to OP, let me make two arguments:

ONE
- Sharia law is based on the religious moral teachings of Islam;
- Many people, especially those who are not Islamic, disagree with some of these beliefs;
- Many people/countries do not support a theocracy, regardless of the religion;
Rightly or wrongly, those are facts.
But when you take those religious beliefs, and extend it to secular law, thereby holding its tenets to those who do not believe in the principles, it is wrong. I may not eat meat on Friday during Lent, but I will gladly sit down and dine with you in a restaurant on those dates.

TWO
Sharia law does not give equal protection to certain groups (women, non-Islamics), and the penalties, as I have pointed out earlier, can be very harsh. Again, you, as a male Islam, may support it. But many do not, and you have no right to have your beliefs held over them.

I could to try make other arguments, and point out where in the Quoran, it is not as simple, consistent, or benign, as where you have cited (just like the Bible has passages that can be considered contradictory). But I am not going to be able to cite you point for point, and that goes beyond my two arguments above.

I don't know if this comment is refer to the OP or to me, because for sure the OP is not a male Muslim, I think the male Muslim in this forum can be count by finger, as far as I know is me and R16. So I assume this comment attributed to me. I thought the discussion already end in the result "agree to be disagree" however if you insisting I will also share what I learnt as a Muslim regarding this issue.

First. The OP doesn't bragging about the implementation shariah law, such discussion only reveal later on, as I also don't share the optimistic as other Muslims like hizbut tahrir on hoping on the implementation of shariah law in European country or at least arguing about it.

So keep in mind, my argument here is just focus on the entity of shariah law itself not about the argumentation on should it be or not implement in any country, even though accommodation on the minority always sound good to me, not only for Muslims but also for other religions or belief but I will not coerce or try to force peoples mind to agree about it by arguing. Open society and open law always seems less paranoid and more welcoming.

- Sharia law is not only based on the religious moral teachings of Islam the implementation is based by various local belief that also exist within the Muslims community. In Islam we constitute both universalistic approach which in Ottoman period known as adamiyyah derive from the hanafi school, which each humanity be their Muslims or non Muslims same in common agreement regarding various aspects in humanity.

However it also constitute to accommodate local law and perspective, here where the relativity of right and wrong or difference moral system and local law been accommodated by the shariah. That mean as TK already stated the non Muslims doesn't been ruled by the shariah law, but they are ruled by their own local customs and law. In Caliphate times we got orthodox court, Jewish court, Catholics court, or in Ottoman there also Armenian courts to rules specific population with its own specific rules which in Ottoman it is known as millet system. Asserting shariah law derive from Quran and Hadith to rule the entire population it is contradict to the very core principle of shariah law itself, which is it doesn't rule non Muslims unless they requested and the non Muslims is ruled by their own moral system and belief.

So think of two level of truth, one is universalistic and agreed upon, other is local and varied. Both are employee in Islam. It is far from being fatalist. So for example we don't need to waste our time to attacking other system and belief in Islam, which something that the Western Orientalism tradition do and still gain its popularity and tradition until now. We pretty much curious or disagree with other, but in no way we want to interfere or dictating other about right and wrong or civilizing other savage civilization, this is not our mission in earth.


- Those who aren't Islamic not been ruled by shariah law as shariah law itself doesn't mean Islamic law and not treat Islamic law as the only legal law within its body. So why the Orthodox disagree when they ruled by their own legal system and organize by their patriarch? That assertion is contra history.


- You can't describe Islamic system as common European theocracy. The thing is you try to understand us by your own history or by your own assumption regarding "the other".

TWO
Sharia law give equal protection to groups within them. The Arianus, Nestorian, Monophysite actually escaped from Orthodox persecution to live inside the Islamic country as a protected citizen (dhimni) they pay taxes that much lower than the Byzantine taxed and nearly similar in amount with zakat which is two and half percent of yearly income, which even much lower than our tax today, beside that they also pay land tax. The tax that they gave already included the protection fee so they don't need to go for obligatory military draft when fighting becoming compulsory for every able Muslims (fardhu ain) for example when the enemy attacked the city.

The governor of Damascus in the time of Umar, Abu Ubaidah even gave back the moneys that he was taken as a tax to the local population because he heard large soldier from Byzantine marching to Damascus, so he gave back all the money that he collected because he afraid he unable to protect the civilian if his army been defeated, touch by his attitude mass conversion to Islam happening at that time, and most were refused to given back to money.

The punishment are indeed can be very harsh, but it is for us Muslims both man and woman. And it is only punished if it is not a personal crime but a public crime, that meant, you will not be punish if you drink alcohol within your house but you will be punish if you do that in public, that also apply for adultery, you may not disagree with that but it is the case. However that is only punishment for crime case and it is not the everything of Islamic law as other poster already stated, it just 1 from a hundred percent things that peoples always to see and exploit as the only things about Islamic law.
 
I don't know much about Sharia, but if a law can be interpreted the way it's interpreted in Saudi Arabia(and it doesn't matter if it's interpreted less strictly elsewhere) then it's not a law I think it's worth supporting. If the law is ambiguous then it's a problem with the law.

agreed the Saudi arabia is not a law that worth supporting and I respect your honesty for not come forth and asserting that Saudi law equal to Islamic law. Because it is not. Take from a very simple law like woman doesn't allow to drive a car.

There are lots of hadith stating otherwise, the most famous is the Prophet explaining there will be a time where woman able to travel safely from Yaman alone by herself fear no one (like bandit, burglar) but God. There also many other account like how the second Caliph Umar lend money to Hindun a famous woman and poet from Quraish so she can able establish her own business in Syria, and she travel there alone and become successful.

The strict gender segregation also far from reflecting the early Madinah community. Man do speak with woman, Aishah the famous wife of the Prophet, is a scholar of the time where many companion getting the fatawa and ruling from her. There also many account where the companion and the prophet speak and talk to woman. However mostly there are line on the relationship between Muslims man and woman, they may interact but the conversation never be trivial it mostly formal and straight to the point.

That said the early Muslims community seems so liberal in the perspective of the conservative Muslims of today where man and woman can't talk to each other even in Saudi female voice consider to be aurat that must be keep silent, but it is seems conservative for the liberal or modern Muslims of today especially the not practising Muslim.
 
Truly a bastion of human rights and respect of individual freedoms, indeed.
Historically speaking, no more or less so than the Christian or Islamic worlds. After all, if we're dealing in such mindlessly sweeping sweeping terms when it comes to culture and geography, there's no reason we shouldn't do the same with time. If the existence of secular Muslim-majority countries has no bearing on the essential Naughtienefs and Perverfity of Islam, then a century or so of liberal democracy should have no bearing on the intolerance and warlordism that lies at the heart of all European civilisation.
 
In areas where Sharia law has been used, it has been extended to non-Islamic people. The more drastic applications extend beyond many people's understanding as human rights.

As to Traitorfish's comments, while I respect his position, even if taken at face value, two wrongs do not make a right - that is never a reason. Just because white Americans enslaved blacks, and held in captivity Japanese-Americans, that does not give them the right to do the same as restitution (although perhaps those who believe strictly in the Quoran might disagree, I doubt you would find others who would support such an action).
 
I'm not arguing that two wrongs make a right. I'm arguing that you're ethnologically illiterate. Different, see?
 
All I see is that rather than engage in a discussion of an opinion different that your own, your best response is a personal insult. I expected better.
 
It's not a personal insult, it's a matter of fact. You don't have the first clue how to interpret ethnological data, and the conclusions you draw from it are consequently untenable. I'm engaging with your opinion by highlighting this.
 
Historically speaking, no more or less so than the Christian or Islamic worlds. After all, if we're dealing in such mindlessly sweeping sweeping terms when it comes to culture and geography, there's no reason we shouldn't do the same with time. If the existence of secular Muslim-majority countries has no bearing on the essential Naughtienefs and Perverfity of Islam, then a century or so of liberal democracy should have no bearing on the intolerance and warlordism that lies at the heart of all European civilisation.

Who says we're always "historically speaking?" Who says they have no bearing? You're saying those things I suppose. I took a not exactly specific comment and made a not particularly specific one in response.
 
In areas where Sharia law has been used, it has been extended to non-Islamic people. The more drastic applications extend beyond many people's understanding as human rights.

That's irrelevant, not according to me or you, but according to shariah, modern law coerce all with one type of law, while shariah only organize Muslims and let other custom or locality (like Christian, Orthodox, Jews, etc, maybe it can be expanded in our time) to organize themselves by their own system.
 
It might be one of those "in practice, in theory" things, where things might be okay "in theory", but when implemented by humans it's too easy to screw up and so gets screwed up.
 
It might be one of those "in practice, in theory" things, where things might be okay "in theory", but when implemented by humans it's too easy to screw up and so gets screwed up.

That can be said for many many things, can't it?

At least, Sharia can be shown to have a pretty good track record pre-20th century wrt respecting other religious traditions' autonomy and applying Islamic law strictly to Muslims. This includes most of the periods of the early caliphates, and the Ottoman, Safavid, and Mughal Empires.
 
Of course it is relevant. If a country adopts Sharia law, or any Sharia guidelines, it will extent to any non-Islamic citizens, or visitors to that country.

Also, not every Islamic person may support Sharia law. For example, Americans who serve in the military or many federal offices take an oath to support the US Constitution - I know several in the army. The US Constitution includes freedom of religion. Those are Islamic persons who do not support Sharia.

Finally, most posters in support of Sharia have ignored the other issue. There have been many examples where Sharia law has been used to violate many people's idea of basic human rights.
 
"Islamic persons" has to be the most awkward phrasing I've encountered in a while.
 
Of course it is relevant. If a country adopts Sharia law, or any Sharia guidelines, it will extent to any non-Islamic citizens, or visitors to that country.

It's technically illegal under Sharia law to do that. Aceh and Malaysia have adopted Sharia to some extent and they apply strictly to Muslims only.

Also, not every Islamic person may support Sharia law

The US Constitution includes freedom of religion. Those are Islamic persons who do not support Sharia.

Now we are back to the apostasy issue, of the conflict between the traditional interpretation of the Hadith and the freedom of religion enshrined in the Quran. Ideally there shouldn't be a conflict in the first place but I'm just pointing out to you that it's not that clear cut even among experts in Islamic law.

Finally, most posters in support of Sharia have ignored the other issue. There have been many examples where Sharia law has been used to violate many people's idea of basic human rights.

There have been many examples where secular law has been used to violate people's human rights too. My home state for example is trying to pass a law infringing on the freedom of assembly (UDHR, article 20).
 
That can be said for many many things, can't it?
Yes. Communism and libertarianism leap out.
At least, Sharia can be shown to have a pretty good track record pre-20th century wrt respecting other religious traditions' autonomy and applying Islamic law strictly to Muslims.

Yeah, but against 20th century liberalism, it looks downright barbaric. It's one of those things where "go ahead, knock yourself out, live according to your code if you want" seems to be the best answer.
 
Yeah, but against 20th century liberalism, it looks downright barbaric. It's one of those things where "go ahead, knock yourself out, live according to your code if you want" seems to be the best answer.

So you won't have a problem with people following Sharia law as long as there is a parallel court system for non-Muslims or Muslims who choose not to go to Sharia courts?

I mean, if that's the case, it's not a bad idea in itself but it seems to go against the basic tenets of 20th century liberalism. All equal before the law, and all that.
 
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