What the hell is happening in Greece?!

Mise

isle of lucy
Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Messages
28,669
Location
London, UK
The only news I hear from Greece is that the economy sucks and that there were riots and stuff. Maybe I'm just not as informed as I should be, I don't know. But I've never heard about any of this:

http://www.2ndcouncilhouse.co.uk/blog/2013/06/14/a-round-up-of-the-situation-in-greece/

I implore you to read the whole thing and tell me what the hell is going on. Because that really shocked me...

Then there's this:"The tourists held by Greek police as illegal migrants" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20958353

And this: http://rt.com/news/greece-immigrants-abuse-police-585/
A representative of the Police Association of Border Guards of Attica, another police union, said ethnic profiling during spot checks was also justified. He said it was acceptable to detain and verify the documents of “all persons who don't look Greek. Many times we also check Greeks too who don’t look Greek.”

What is going on?!?!
 
Your link is somewhat of dubious character (2ndcouncilhouse).

As to the racial profiling, it means that the police- when they bother to- stop people on the street who do not look greek (eg they are black, from Africa, or middle-eastern or central-asian such as from Pakistan and Afganistan). Nothing special here since more than 98% of those are illegals anyway.

That said, the police sucks. This country is full of illegals coming from the border with Turkey, and through the Aegean mostly. There are probably more than 1 million illegals in Greece (mostly in Athens) in a country of barely 11 million legal citizens.
 
Politically: Old divisions are falling and new ones appearing (the division between pro and anti EU/austerity). SYRIZA (the far left party) and Golden Dawn (thug fascists) are reaping most of the gains. The party that inaugurated in all of this carp, PAKSOS, barely even exists in the polling at this point.
 
Politically: Old divisions are falling and new ones appearing (the division between pro and anti EU/austerity). SYRIZA (the far left party) and Golden Dawn (thug fascists) are reaping most of the gains. The party that inaugurated in all of this carp, PAKSOS, barely even exists in the polling at this point.

Nice to see you actually researched this. You meant to say "Pasok", btw, Paksos (sic) is a Greek brand of athletic-wear...

At the moment it is mostly a tripartite power here, ND (main party in the current coalition), Syriza, and GD are in the first three spots, either in that order or with Syriza overtaking ND. Not that it matters, since the next government will probably be a coalition of ND and Syriza (which is even more ludicrous than the current ruling coalition).
 
WARNING: RAMBLING AHEAD

I thought most of this was already fairly well known, if you look for it. I've read reports that the train system has largely stopped working, that public hospitals have run out of supplies and that there are pseudo-fascists roaming the streets. The existence of sex slavery in Greece shouldn't surprise you by the way, the same thing exists in the Netherlands, Germany and probably the UK. It doesn't get that much attention in the mainstream media, since doing actual investigative reporting is expensive, the story isn't attractive for European people (look at the damage we're causing with our stupid policy) and also doesn't have a nice good guy/bad guy narrative, like the protests in Greater Arabia. (For our American readers: think about the situation in Chicago.) The resident Greeks also seem to prefer to gloat about some tree huggers in Constantinople than about how their state is turning into Weimar Germany 2.0.

I think most of this is also not very surprising, I expect it's the same things that happened in Russia in the early 90s and in other places where the government collapsed (Weimar? Yugoslavia post-Tito?). Personal connections become more important than the law, the police turns into a big armed mob. Aggressive ideologies become more influential.

The situation in Greece does have some things that make it especially bad. Their location makes them one of the main entry points for illegal immigrants into the EU, who tend to get stuck. This is problematic in several of the Southern member states, Italy also seems to have lots of problems with illegals living on the street, while this problem is virtually non-existent in the Netherlands/Germany, as far as I know. Which is surprising, since the latter are richer and you would expect the immigrants to diffuse northwards.
Greece being a member of the Eurozone means they didn't have the option of bankruptcy / printing tons of money, to look for an Argentina style exit. On the other hand, one would think that being part of the Eurozone would cause some solidarity from the other states to help them out, but this has been not the case at all. I think the case that the Euro has been net detrimental for Greece is becoming easier and easier with the day, and this is IMO totally unnecessary.
EU membership and the open borders that come with it seems to have destroyed most of Greece's economy and normally this would lead to depreciation of their currency, so that comparative advantages would pop-up, but this hasn't happened due to Euro. The influx of new EU member states also means that they can't easily undercut wages. If you were to be a free market lover, you might now also argue that their labour laws, which are about as flexible as the Great Wall of China from what I've read, are not helping the situation.
This lack of domestic industry and reliance on imports makes the bite-the-bullet-and-go-bankrupt schemes a lot more difficult. (But this is a general feature of our oil imports based economy.)

I think a solution within the Greek democratic system would have been difficult from the start and is, after the austerity blundering, totally impossible. A stable, centrist coalition with broad popular support would be required. (Incidentally, where is the Greek orthodox church in all of this?) I have the feeling that the corruption has settled far enough down the Greek bureaucratic, legislative and political system that it has become part of the problem, not part of the solution.

What would be needed to solve this is IMO similar to what happens when a city or province goes bankrupt/has severe management issues. The greater entity brings (in this case the EU) brings in some emergency manager and puts the country under legal restraint (I'm not sure this is the correct term in English legalese). I suppose it would be somewhat similar to the post-war occupational zones in Germany + the Marshall plan. Important is to keep money rolling in to pay for government worker salaries and to keep unemployment low. You would slowly try to build up the system from scratch. Then again, such nation building efforts haven't been very productive in American hands recently.

Such an effort is about as feasible as me being elected prime minister of Iran. Giving any sort of authority to the EUSSR/EUSA is very very unpopular right now (though IMO most of the problems have been caused by a lack of Europeaness and a too large focus by all politicians on their own member state instead of the Union.), spending any money on Greece will make lots of people very angry (the bad way the media has reported about all of this doesn't help). Can anyone explain my who thought austerity was a good idea and why?
 
I mostly agree with your post Dutch. The bail-outs were not exactly a massive error, they were largely a planned fraud, as currently the then minister of finance (Papakonstantinou) and somewhat also the hideous ex-pm (Papandreou) are either standing trial, or asked to stand trial by a massive number of the public, and most mp's too.

So this was not just some stupid EU plan that failed. The EU may be quite unefficient in its institutions, but it is very naive to believe that no one at all knew of the blown-up debt and the deals with toxic debt, and the last-minute bloating of the debt (mostly artificially, ie a lie) so as to present the situation as one needing Greece to go the IMF way.

As i had said before, the bail-outs did no good at all. At their start the debt was a lot smaller than it is now. At their start the economy was a lot larger than it is now. At their start the general level of life for Greek people was a lot higher, and unemployment was enormously lower than it is now.

I see no other way out of this now other than some sort of "Marshall-plan", along with controlled exit from the zone of common currency (while remaining in the European Union).
 
Why are illegal immigrants still going to Greece if it's as bad off as it is?
 
I don't know enough about the situation bugfatty, but I know there are a lot of refugees from Africa and the Middle East who get channeled into Europe through Greece.

A lot of them get scammed though, sort of like some Coyotes do in the US, and convince parents that Europe is a land of milk and honey where their children will have opportunities. People pay months or years of salaries to get their kids into Europe only for their 'benefactors' to dump them in Greece or elsewhere with no care. A lot of kids end up growing up in places like Greece, too afraid to return afraid of disappointing their families
 
Can anyone explain my who thought austerity was a good idea and why?

It's politically palatable: Let's give those lazy Greeks a lesson!
 
A representative of the Police Association of Border Guards of Attica, another police union, said ethnic profiling during spot checks was also justified. He said it was acceptable to detain and verify the documents of “all persons who don't look Greek. Many times we also check Greeks too who don’t look Greek.”

Do people in Greek have to carry their papers always with them? Because otherwise this makes no sense.
 
^Whereas obviously there is no law stating you have to, by now it is pretty much the wise thing to do to carry your id card. Id cards are used in rare cases (doing business with some contract, verifying your identity etc) but i personally always carry mine with me, although it is unlikely that police will ask me for it, since obviously i look like one of the fairer members of the Dodecatheon a direct descendant of Byzantine Emperors ;)

Well, i always carry the id card, since sometimes Police do stop even people who do not look foreign, mostly if they do their routine runs at some places of the city where it is known that sometimes small-crime can occur (mostly some drug addicts trying to sell narcotics). However in this city there is not much crime, when compared to what is going on in Athens... Police has made its presence more obvious though in the last couple of years, which probably by itself is not a bad thing, although i dislike seeing them in large groups.
 
The EU and the northern states should take more responsibility for those illegal immigrants. It's supposed to be a union isn't it? In any case, I think the solution is a complete integration of the EU. A full federation. There's no way back now. Not even for for Greece.
 
The EU and the northern states should take more responsibility for those illegal immigrants. It's supposed to be a union isn't it? In any case, I think the solution is a complete integration of the EU. A full federation. There's no way back now. Not even for for Greece.

Eventually - unless it suddenly goes boom - yes. Problem is, it goes slower than would be ideal, because it's more less politically suicidal to support anything that "suggest" that "hardworking countries" pay for the laziness of the "lazy countries".

This is what economists almost never seem to get. Yes, Eurobonds are good. But no, not everyone is smart enough to understand it.
 
Your link is somewhat of dubious character (2ndcouncilhouse).

As to the racial profiling, it means that the police- when they bother to- stop people on the street who do not look greek (eg they are black, from Africa, or middle-eastern or central-asian such as from Pakistan and Afganistan). Nothing special here since more than 98% of those are illegals anyway.

That said, the police sucks. This country is full of illegals coming from the border with Turkey, and through the Aegean mostly. There are probably more than 1 million illegals in Greece (mostly in Athens) in a country of barely 11 million legal citizens.
So there are virtually no ethnic groups in Greece other than Greeks?

That 9% of the population are in the country illegally?
 
while this problem is virtually non-existent in the Netherlands/Germany, as far as I know. Which is surprising, since the latter are richer and you would expect the immigrants to diffuse northwards.

They are also far, far more racist countries in a very widespread and hidden way. I have for it the word of many immigrants who ,moved there, regretted it and returned south. But you probably don't even notice it. That the greeks are now changing attitude towards immigrants is news, which says soimething of what their attiture had been.

Greece being a member of the Eurozone means they didn't have the option of bankruptcy / printing tons of money, to look for an Argentina style exit. On the other hand, one would think that being part of the Eurozone would cause some solidarity from the other states to help them out, but this has been not the case at all. I think the case that the Euro has been net detrimental for Greece is becoming easier and easier with the day, and this is IMO totally unnecessary.

The greeks themselves overwhelmingly supported the bailout when the question was nearly put to a referendum. Fear of breaking with the Euro and the EU. It is costing them grealy and must still cost them some more until they change their minds. They will change their minds when they have nothing left to lose but their clothes. :rolleyes:

I think a solution within the Greek democratic system would have been difficult from the start and is, after the austerity blundering, totally impossible.

No, it's the opposite. A democratic solution for leaving the Euro is now possible where it was originally impossible. But those leading such an exit will still get blamed for the inevitable problems during the transition period. Many greeks still have something to lose. Democracy is working, we can say, the greek government has actually been delivering the greeks the option they wanted.

What would be needed to solve this is IMO similar to what happens when a city or province goes bankrupt/has severe management issues. The greater entity brings (in this case the EU) brings in some emergency manager and puts the country under legal restraint (I'm not sure this is the correct term in English legalese). I suppose it would be somewhat similar to the post-war occupational zones in Germany + the Marshall plan.

That is absolutely and totally unnaceptable. Invite the thiefs in to fix the place they robbed? :mad:
Because, make no mistake, the south of Europe has been robbed under the EU/Euro institutional arrangements.
 
Why are illegal immigrants still going to Greece if it's as bad off as it is?
Given the high rampid unemployment, I would think they'd flee to the borders for better opportunities.
 
Top Bottom