warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Basing countries along ethnic lines is so 20th century
Where is Poland?
- Thread starter NickyJ
- Start date
Basing countries along ethnic lines is so 20th century
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Would a confederation actually change that in concrete terms?
The more developed Slavic countries would, in a confederation, be expected to support the economies of the less developed countries; that's what happens when you confederate like that. In return, the less developed Slavic countries, above all Russia, would come to wield collective political clout over the more developed countries, who are a minority among Slavic nations. In essence, what's being asked is that
I've honestly never heard this from anyone who wasn't either Russia or from before the Second World War.
Eh, the Scottish issue really is more complicated than that. In meatworld, most nationalists are fairly ambivalent about the English themselves, their objections are to the concentration of political power in a body that is distant, corrupt and unresponsive. Scottish nationalism is by and large a way of giving coherent(ish) form to what are themselves fairly sober grievances.
(Also, it's interesting that you pose the question of being between economics and sentimentality. Is that what we get when politics dies, a choice between money and sentiment?)
Pokurcz
Emperor
Veles
Comparing who did more bad things to the other is never a good idea, as is evident if you put some patriotic Serbs, Bosniaks, Kroats and other formerly pan southslavic people together. But hey this time it could be fun!
Personaly, as a polish person somewhat interested in history, when it comes to who was badder to who between Russians and Poles I tend to think that all the bad things done by Poles towards Russians (and yes some of them were realy bad) where basically repayed with the 120 years or so of Polish servitude during the 19th century and the 80 years before that where Poland basically became a plaything of Russian tsars starting with the Silent Sejm in 1717. Thats over a century of complete and almost constant subjugation with all that that entails.
So Ill give you that after the first world war we were even.
What unfortunately happened was that Stalin got personaly insulted by the Miracle at the Vistula in 1920, you just do not do that to the worlds biggest megalomaniac and powerhungry nutjob, and he held a grudge!
So what followed I consider that Russia still owes Poland bigtime (Yes I consider that Russia inherited Soviet sins just like todays Poland inherited the loans that The Polis peoples republic tok from the USSR):
And Yes yes, Yeltsin and I think even Gorbatjov apologized for all that and that was very nice; but the lest one could ask for is that these things should be taught in Russian schools and talked of in Russian society so that you could come to grips with it. Not unlike Germany and their Nazi sins, so that one would not have to stumble on Russians all the time who denythose things having happened. THen wee would know that the apologies were sincere and we could start forgiving you.
You do not have to answer, just mull over it for a bit.
Comparing who did more bad things to the other is never a good idea, as is evident if you put some patriotic Serbs, Bosniaks, Kroats and other formerly pan southslavic people together. But hey this time it could be fun!
Personaly, as a polish person somewhat interested in history, when it comes to who was badder to who between Russians and Poles I tend to think that all the bad things done by Poles towards Russians (and yes some of them were realy bad) where basically repayed with the 120 years or so of Polish servitude during the 19th century and the 80 years before that where Poland basically became a plaything of Russian tsars starting with the Silent Sejm in 1717. Thats over a century of complete and almost constant subjugation with all that that entails.
So Ill give you that after the first world war we were even.
What unfortunately happened was that Stalin got personaly insulted by the Miracle at the Vistula in 1920, you just do not do that to the worlds biggest megalomaniac and powerhungry nutjob, and he held a grudge!
So what followed I consider that Russia still owes Poland bigtime (Yes I consider that Russia inherited Soviet sins just like todays Poland inherited the loans that The Polis peoples republic tok from the USSR):
- THe Molotov Ribentrop pact with the Nazis and the alomst simultaneus stab in the back in 1939. THe deportation of scores of people to Siberia and the death of probably up to a million Poles (mostly civilians) during WW2 at the hands of the Soviets.
- After the Russians pushed the Nazis out of Poland they emediately started torturing and exterminating AK members (the Polish resistance movement who had fought the Nazis); wich went on well in to the fifties.
- The fifty years of servitude to the USSR (when for example Poland was forced to sell firstrate food to Russia for much less than the market value) up untill 1989.
And Yes yes, Yeltsin and I think even Gorbatjov apologized for all that and that was very nice; but the lest one could ask for is that these things should be taught in Russian schools and talked of in Russian society so that you could come to grips with it. Not unlike Germany and their Nazi sins, so that one would not have to stumble on Russians all the time who denythose things having happened. THen wee would know that the apologies were sincere and we could start forgiving you.
You do not have to answer, just mull over it for a bit.
The concept of having countries at all is so 19th century. The sooner we get one world governmnet the better. We gotta make sure, though, it's not some kind of nazi communist illuminati new world order jewish masonic conspiracy.
@Pokurcz
Why, I have a lot of things to answer.
You overdramatize the condition of the Poles in the Russian Empire, who were in many ways freer than Russians themselves. Nothing especially disastrous happened during Russian control. You weren't assimilated, forced to convert into your faith, colonised by Russians or anything. Your identity wasn't in any way threatened. If you seek mistreating in those times, look no further than Odra lands, who were Germanised in no time almost completely. Were it not for Soviet Union you would have no chances of returning those lands ever.
So Ill give you that after the first world war we were even.
ORLY? How was it measured?
So much grudge Stalin held, that he even granted you your long lost lands (ever since Boleslav, is it?), a half of what you own now, ethnically deporting Germans (the whole world now blames Russia and we didn't even benefit from it in any way), who earlier ethnically cleansed it for themselves and repopulating it with Poles. Sure we also retook our westren lands that Poles stole from us in a moment of our near-destruction. But overall I have nothing good to say on Stalin (to put it mildly), he shouldn't be representative of Russia anyway, he killed a lot more Russians than Poles ever could.
Well, yes it's a pity that Soviet solders couldn't bring you what they themselves didn't have. Freedom, democracy and other cookies. Poles had two options: to be completely wiped off the face of the planet in German slavery or to get thier long lost land, to double in size and live as a communist puppet state with Polish language, culture and sciences prospering. Yes people weren't rich, but neither were the Russians. The overall situation with povetry were improved drastically. Are you gonna deny that? The notion that Russians 'were stealing' from Poles and took it all for themselves is beyond ridiculous. Russia was the biggest donor in thw whole of the Warsaw block (see, we even named it Warsaw, not Moscow pact). Poles were always regarded as almost living in the West by the rest of the USSR. Of course all those deportations of Poles and shooting of thier officers were awful crimes, and Russians suffered a even more from that said system, a lot more. Pre-1953 USSR was complete bastard to Russia.
Yet you Poles are as usual biggest bros with Germans and the West and whenever they screw you over (again) you blame Russia.
Should we really get into counting our sins to each other and measuring thier impact and rinse and repeat it endlessly? Do you think it will serve us any good? You're too quick to write Polish misdeeds of the past off. Who said that's ok? Did any Russian agreed to that? Yet you demand an endless series of official apologies, no less. We didn't hear you sincere appoligies, even symbolic ones, for taking our heartlands and holding it for 500 years, forcing Catholicism, torturing and killing those who refused; neither for taking Pskov, Smolensk and atrocities that followed there. Niether for 1612 and the conquest of Moscow and unspeakable attrocities that followed. Niether for 1812 when Poles partaking in Napoleons invasion were mindlessly cruel to Russians, so that even Bonaparte generals were disgusted.
To be frank with you, it really grieves me what Russia did to thier Polish Slavic brothers. Just as much as it grievs me what Poles did to thier Russian Slavic brothers. Such an intense and completely sensless hostility. We could have united and pwned everyone or at least be busy developing, because we're not really different, instead we spent centuries and centuries and centuries and centuries fighting and spilling brothers Slavic blood and for what? A millenium since it all first started we're still at each other's throats!
There's only one way outta this mess.
1) To apologise to each other regardless of who done more bad stuff or who's more to blame, because we'll never agree on that and it would go on forever. Sufficient enough to say that we've been *very* bad to each other, not at all how brothers should treat each other.
And to apologise not on the political level, because politicans have thier own agenda. Just on personal level, whenever it's appropriate.
2) Work towards the institution that would promote stability in the region and not make either of us feel left out.
Why, I have a lot of things to answer.
You overdramatize the condition of the Poles in the Russian Empire, who were in many ways freer than Russians themselves. Nothing especially disastrous happened during Russian control. You weren't assimilated, forced to convert into your faith, colonised by Russians or anything. Your identity wasn't in any way threatened. If you seek mistreating in those times, look no further than Odra lands, who were Germanised in no time almost completely. Were it not for Soviet Union you would have no chances of returning those lands ever.
So Ill give you that after the first world war we were even.
ORLY? How was it measured?
So much grudge Stalin held, that he even granted you your long lost lands (ever since Boleslav, is it?), a half of what you own now, ethnically deporting Germans (the whole world now blames Russia and we didn't even benefit from it in any way), who earlier ethnically cleansed it for themselves and repopulating it with Poles. Sure we also retook our westren lands that Poles stole from us in a moment of our near-destruction. But overall I have nothing good to say on Stalin (to put it mildly), he shouldn't be representative of Russia anyway, he killed a lot more Russians than Poles ever could.
Well, yes it's a pity that Soviet solders couldn't bring you what they themselves didn't have. Freedom, democracy and other cookies. Poles had two options: to be completely wiped off the face of the planet in German slavery or to get thier long lost land, to double in size and live as a communist puppet state with Polish language, culture and sciences prospering. Yes people weren't rich, but neither were the Russians. The overall situation with povetry were improved drastically. Are you gonna deny that? The notion that Russians 'were stealing' from Poles and took it all for themselves is beyond ridiculous. Russia was the biggest donor in thw whole of the Warsaw block (see, we even named it Warsaw, not Moscow pact). Poles were always regarded as almost living in the West by the rest of the USSR. Of course all those deportations of Poles and shooting of thier officers were awful crimes, and Russians suffered a even more from that said system, a lot more. Pre-1953 USSR was complete bastard to Russia.
Yet you Poles are as usual biggest bros with Germans and the West and whenever they screw you over (again) you blame Russia.
Should we really get into counting our sins to each other and measuring thier impact and rinse and repeat it endlessly? Do you think it will serve us any good? You're too quick to write Polish misdeeds of the past off. Who said that's ok? Did any Russian agreed to that? Yet you demand an endless series of official apologies, no less. We didn't hear you sincere appoligies, even symbolic ones, for taking our heartlands and holding it for 500 years, forcing Catholicism, torturing and killing those who refused; neither for taking Pskov, Smolensk and atrocities that followed there. Niether for 1612 and the conquest of Moscow and unspeakable attrocities that followed. Niether for 1812 when Poles partaking in Napoleons invasion were mindlessly cruel to Russians, so that even Bonaparte generals were disgusted.
To be frank with you, it really grieves me what Russia did to thier Polish Slavic brothers. Just as much as it grievs me what Poles did to thier Russian Slavic brothers. Such an intense and completely sensless hostility. We could have united and pwned everyone or at least be busy developing, because we're not really different, instead we spent centuries and centuries and centuries and centuries fighting and spilling brothers Slavic blood and for what? A millenium since it all first started we're still at each other's throats!
There's only one way outta this mess.
1) To apologise to each other regardless of who done more bad stuff or who's more to blame, because we'll never agree on that and it would go on forever. Sufficient enough to say that we've been *very* bad to each other, not at all how brothers should treat each other.
And to apologise not on the political level, because politicans have thier own agenda. Just on personal level, whenever it's appropriate.
2) Work towards the institution that would promote stability in the region and not make either of us feel left out.
Believe me I am down with that. It is what americans call "manifest destiny". If it happens - and I think it will - it will not be because of panslavism or imitation of western democracy/capitalism. Its most likely to come because the western democracy will go soon beyond its zenith (corruption and enslavement of people by corporations..) Then something new will have to manifest (just like French revolution, rise of Rome, or present American liberalism) and the most likely place for that will be I think Russia...
We could call it Centroslavia!
Name would be certainly tough but what really matters is that you will get country size of France with population of Italy....
@Gorakshanat
That's what prophecies are tellingIt better be awesome. The word democracy is discredited nowadays. But I meant this in the geniune sense. More power to people, more responsibility from people, profit.
Well, yeah, there is some sort of esoteric view on this which I am not very familiar with...but when you think of it nothin lasts for ever and corruption has been on the rise for quite a while /poeple are not really represented any more and democracy became toy of masters illusionists. It is very complex but something is coming and yes it better be good... Russians (Slavs) are bit different then the Anglosaxons and I think they will be more capable to manifest this somethin new
Just because EU works that way doesn't mean Slavic Union has to be the same. In what way is Czechia capable of supporting Russia, for example? A nation of 10 mil people with 0,3 trillion GDP would support a nation of 140 mil people with 3 trillion GDP? Come on. They do have a better infrastructure due to less territory and less corruption, but Russia has enormous potential and a lot of possibilities for profitable investments. *Profitable* investments.
I heard that from every single Slav I drank with. Not one was of the opposite opinon. The technicalities were at question, the general premise of Slavs having to unite - never.
This is very poetic when coming from you, but I've encountered a slightly more blunt apporoach such as "fooking English stealing our oil leave the Scots alone we should leave the uk !!1!".
TheLastOne36
Deity
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- 14,045
I actually know a Belarussian guy (from Western Belarus mind you) who hates Russia.
The East/West divide in Ukraine also apparently seems to be ingrained in Belarus, but to a lesser extent. (Good job on that, you've more successfully brainwashed them!
)Meh, no more than this, for example.
Meh. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania was a Ruthenian state in all practicality (Shh, don't tell the Lithuanians that, it's the only thing they hold on to in history!)
And Poland technically inherited the areas. Lithuania is the one that annexed everything in Ruthenia.
If you want to blame the Poles on something, talk about our brutal invasion of post-Kievan Rus principalities like Galicia-Volhynia, and others.
We could also talk about that time when we sacked Moscow.
Actually, it was times. 
How can one hate a country? I can get hating its current establishment. Hell, I know a lot of Russians who hate it.
Anyway, all the sweet slavic kinship seen in this thread makes me feel all warm and fuzzy!
little more on the topic: there is something called Central European Time (CET) so I assume there must be some kind of central Europe as well...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_Time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_Time
Pokurcz
Emperor
THe fun never stops! 
In the Russian occupied parts of Poland during the 19th century Poles where forbidden to learn Polish in school, forbidden to buy land, in some instances forbidden to own land. Whenever Poles tried to fight for their rights they were sent to Siberia. Russia Was a despotic imperialist state that subjugated a lot of different people including its own.
As a RUssian historicaly you dont even know what freedome is or the right to decide over your own destiny. Almost Everyone in Russia has suffered so making other people suffer is not a big deal. It is a matter of perspective.
Dude, your being childish and ignorant
, Poland lost 1/3 of its land in Stalins little rearangement, and that is with the land we "regained" included in the calculation. Deporting all those Germans was as evil as deporting all those Poles from their land in Belarus and Ukraine, and yes Russia is to blame. Poland was rebuilt as a country after WW1 and that land in the east was regained just like the rest of Poland. Just have a look from that perspective for a moment.
) you took over Poland for your self and turned it into a nightmare in your image, in practice enslaving people and killing hundreds of thousands as you went at it.
The Polish economy was much better after the war than during the war, economies do flurish when not being bombed by the enemy.
Forcing a party under the threat of violence to sell their goods under the market value is what the mafia does. It is not considered fair play and is a kind of stealing.
The awesome thing with Germany is that not only do they admitt to everything they have done and apologise for it every chance they get, they even payed reparations after the war. When you talk to them they do not deny nor try to gloss over their crimes. Unless their insane Neonazis, but hey there are crazy people everywhere!
Dude I admitted that those things were horrible, most poles do not deny them unless they are nationalist wackos.
But there is such a thing as statute of limitations in reality, because holding a grudge over centuries from times when the value of human lives in everyday life was all but nonexistent,; especially as you have had two centuries of payback is downright insulting and to downplay recent abominations that still reside in living memory.![[pissed]](/images/smilies/pissed.gif "Pissed [pissed]")
War and hostility is unnessesary because people gain more from cooperation, it warms my heart to hear that all bad things between us grieve you and I also find all these horrors to be regrettable.
But that is what I find questionable in your motives, that we should be united to "pwne everyone", why not grant other ethnicities peace and prosperity.
Isint the desire for pwnage at the root of thebad things that we are discussing?
It is feels silly to apologise for what my somewhat distant ancestors did centuries ago as people in my family who were allive in the previous decade were raped and robbed by Russian soldiers but hey I'll apologize!
In the Russian occupied parts of Poland during the 19th century Poles where forbidden to learn Polish in school, forbidden to buy land, in some instances forbidden to own land. Whenever Poles tried to fight for their rights they were sent to Siberia. Russia Was a despotic imperialist state that subjugated a lot of different people including its own.
As a RUssian historicaly you dont even know what freedome is or the right to decide over your own destiny. Almost Everyone in Russia has suffered so making other people suffer is not a big deal. It is a matter of perspective.
Dude, your being childish and ignorant
, Poland lost 1/3 of its land in Stalins little rearangement, and that is with the land we "regained" included in the calculation. Deporting all those Germans was as evil as deporting all those Poles from their land in Belarus and Ukraine, and yes Russia is to blame. Poland was rebuilt as a country after WW1 and that land in the east was regained just like the rest of Poland. Just have a look from that perspective for a moment.Yes it is a pity that just as you pushed out one agressor (wich you had helped in taking over Poland
) you took over Poland for your self and turned it into a nightmare in your image, in practice enslaving people and killing hundreds of thousands as you went at it.So you had to spread your kind of hell to other people, thanks.
The Polish economy was much better after the war than during the war, economies do flurish when not being bombed by the enemy.
Forcing a party under the threat of violence to sell their goods under the market value is what the mafia does. It is not considered fair play and is a kind of stealing.
I know, the Russians did suffer the most from Stalin (or was it the Ukranians with the Glodomord?). But that dosen't make the crimes perpetrated against Poles or other free nations less criminal.
The awesome thing with Germany is that not only do they admitt to everything they have done and apologise for it every chance they get, they even payed reparations after the war. When you talk to them they do not deny nor try to gloss over their crimes. Unless their insane Neonazis, but hey there are crazy people everywhere!
Just dont deny and gloss over your crimes.
As if Russians did not torture and kill Poles in those days.
Dude I admitted that those things were horrible, most poles do not deny them unless they are nationalist wackos.
But there is such a thing as statute of limitations in reality, because holding a grudge over centuries from times when the value of human lives in everyday life was all but nonexistent,; especially as you have had two centuries of payback is downright insulting and to downplay recent abominations that still reside in living memory.
War and hostility is unnessesary because people gain more from cooperation, it warms my heart to hear that all bad things between us grieve you and I also find all these horrors to be regrettable.
But that is what I find questionable in your motives, that we should be united to "pwne everyone", why not grant other ethnicities peace and prosperity.
Isint the desire for pwnage at the root of thebad things that we are discussing?
It is feels silly to apologise for what my somewhat distant ancestors did centuries ago as people in my family who were allive in the previous decade were raped and robbed by Russian soldiers but hey I'll apologize!
Pokurcz
Emperor
Notice how awesome Poland looks on the Imperial Coat of Arms:
Spoiler :
No, you're awesome!
Exactly what Poland did earlier on Russian lands. See my point? Of course, just because Russian misdeeds were more recent it somehow feels more wrong. But what about all those Russians who to thier misfortune had to suffer in the age before it was cool to apologise or act humane. Again, nobody of Polish officials ever commented on it. So you, see it feels like, "sure Poland did bad stuff but it was long ago and it was ok back then, Russia on the other hand did exactly the same things, but a little closer to our times, so they are teh evil".
I tell to you, that in the global sense, I regret every drop of spilled brotherly Polish blood.
That's because they lost and have been made feel (at times unnecessary) guilt by the whole world for 60 years already. Note, however that all the way since 12th century they've been going eastwards taking Slavic lands, enslaving people and not once expressed any sign of guilty, quite the contratry. And only after they lost and was on the brink of destruction they suddenly are all peaceful and apologising. I have no grudge against them at all, though, it's time we live in everlasting peace for a change.
But that is what I find questionable in your motives, that we should be united to "pwne everyone", why not grant other ethnicities peace and prosperity.
That was just for teh lulz. But back then we actually had a number of enemies to pwn. Namely Crimean Tartars, who made great damage to both Polish Ukraine and Russia, and our rulers hired them against each other instead of crushing the for good. Or Turks. Or Swedes.
What? It *does* look cool! Do you have any coats of arms of the times of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with Ruthenian voivodships on it?
Central Europe with Swiss, Lichtenstein and Croatia in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe
Richard Cribb
He does monologues
- Joined
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Central Europe.
Hahaha, the irony.
TheLastOne36
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2007
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- 14,045
Explain.
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