While We Wait: Boredom Strikes Back

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Sorry, I've been embroiled in way too many things (both in the NES and out of it). Also, I thought the deadline was on Wednesday?

Yes, it is merely a reminder.

I suppose all those are inevitable; it would just be nice to see some more variety as there are many other such parahistorical "tropes" that are constantly neglected in NESes as compared to those.

True enough.

I'm not saying people should stop ruling steppe empires (though I do wish those would be treated in a way that is more true to history; sure, they won't get to go on those one-player civilization-wrecking rampages as often, but it would still make the steppes much more interesting for the rest of us and possibly for those who live there as well)

Well, if you refer to End of Empires in particular I can say firmly that we see a tiny fraction of the total area of the steppe, and there are interesting things brewing in the distance. Some of which will come into view very soon.

I'm saying more people should try and do something with hydraulic despotism, tribal kingship, rickety overland empires a la Persia, slave-owning republics and so on. I know I'll do my part when appropriate.

Sure, most definitely.

Care to elaborate exactly what you meant by it, then?

Sure; if one category is a pastoral horse-warrior culture, then we could create a similarly broad (and similarly useless category) containing all sedentary despotisms.

So situations that could happen to many different countries, effect them in many different ways, and have various results is just as generic as the steppe empires we see in every NES doing the exact same thing every time?

Pardon? Are you implying steppe nations have had the same effect on every NES they've been in? If so, I'd really, really beg to differ.
 
Also, I don't approve of calling my nation a 'generic steppe empire,' any more than other nations are a 'generic tribal empire' or a 'generic mercantile empire'. Also, they're in the process of becoming sedentary.

Ninja, you sound like the Byzantine player whining about how the Turks wrecked his setup. :p
 
Pardon? Are you implying steppe nations have had the same effect on every NES they've been in? If so, I'd really, really beg to differ.

Well, the NESes I've been in or read that a steppe empire showed up in, it pretty much cleaned house, or was about to, but then the NES ended. I'd like to see an example of a steppe empire not following the same pattern I see the other ones following.

Ninja, you sound like the Byzantine player whining about how the Turks wrecked his setup.

It's more of a matter that steppe empires are just handed to people, which is like giving someone a "rule a majority of the known world for a few turns" free card. They don't need to work on unifying the steppes or deal with infighting. How'd you like it if I let NK join my NES as a mega god that just stomped your castle and your god inside it flat? ;)
 
I wasn't sitting in the darkness for three or four turns doing nothing, you know. :p Also, each and every one of my targets wasn't expecting to be attacked when or where they ultimately were. That was the reason behind my success.

Then what were you doing in the darkness? :D I'd love to hear it. Also, I'd put the reason behind your success more to your huge army towards the later part of your rampage. :p

Also a little fun fact: I had a large group of troops ready to possibly try and repel a Satar attack, but I stationed them in the wrong place, making the operation a total failure :blush:
 
Then what were you doing in the darkness? :D I'd love to hear it. Also, I'd put the reason behind your success more to your huge army towards the later part of your rampage. :p

Also a little fun fact: I had a large group of troops ready to possibly try and repel a Satar attack, but I stationed them in the wrong place, making the operation a total failure :blush:

Originally I was migrating westward, hoping to reach the other side of the continent. Ultimately however that wasn't viable for a variety of geographic reasons, not to mention I had no way of knowing if there was any civilization there. So, I continued to expand the size of the confederacy, warring with other neighboring tribes and amongst ourselves. Then I reunified the confederacy under one ruler in the turn they reappeared on the map.

As I remember it, I did fight a large Kratoan army, and defeated it, but that's somewhat ancient history. :p

As for your last question, the Katdhi and Bahrans didn't expect me to attack from the north, or the west, respectively. The Seshweay didn't expect me to build a river fleet to ferry troops onto the Seis Delta. (Or to be attacked at all.) And the Trilui and Faronun certainly didn't expect me to attack their capitals from the north, instead of from the Had Valley, the obvious route of advance. So, give me credit where credit is due, I wasn't just an amorphous blob plowing through every nation in my path.

Steppe empires succeed by merit of their mobility, not their numbers.
 
Well, if you refer to End of Empires in particular I can say firmly that we see a tiny fraction of the total area of the steppe, and there are interesting things brewing in the distance. Some of which will come into view very soon.

I will consider your NES officially redeemed when someone other than the Satar and their cheap knock-offs comes from the steppe to ravage the periphery of the civilised world. :p

Sure; if one category is a pastoral horse-warrior culture, then we could create a similarly broad (and similarly useless category) containing all sedentary despotisms.

See, that's confusing because I've seen professional historians use that as a genuine dichotomy, if a one that admittedly didn't quite apply to the many, many hybrid states - nomads going sedentary (Uighurs before the Qing wiped them out, but also others) and agrarians incorporating nomadic structures and systems (Muscovy, Manchuria). So obviously the ones that actually ended up being qualified as pure "agrarian despotisms" also usually coincided with what we generally consider hydraulic despotisms.

I suppose the agrarian despotisms really are potentially more varied, but that's why it's more of a shame that we don't see a lot of people properly dedicated to that mindset, as opposed to going on various distinctly non-despotic tangents. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you'd think the classic version would be more prevalent than it currently is.

So going back to my original question, I still don't see enough of those as compared to steppe nomad empires. ;)

ALSO: Someone should make a steppe nomad empire that is distinctly peaceful and mercantile. It'd be kind of like Reasonable Marines if you know what I'm talking about, not to mention not really clashing with what a lot of them actually wanted to have - after all, it has been well argued that Genghis Khan's nonsense about the lamentations of their women was only ever singled out in the Secret History because it was an anomalous view among the Mongols.

Pardon? Are you implying steppe nations have had the same effect on every NES they've been in? If so, I'd really, really beg to differ.

You have to admit that it has been strikingly similar. A great horde of steppe nomads, always very martial and often wearing masks rolls in from beyond the limits of the known world (usually the north for some reason), attacks everyone for little to no reason, destroys a few frontier civilizations, damages some others, makes a third group its vassals and tributaries, unites everyone against it, suffers defeat and collapses into infighting, then falls back, reunites and does it again. Maybe this doesn't happen always but it happens often enough to grate people.

Also, each and every one of my targets wasn't expecting to be attacked when or where they ultimately were.

Well yes, because it was with hardly any in-character rhyme or reason from what I understand. I honestly have no idea how your nobles put up with you so long, or how you didn't end up eating all your horses and melting away like snow after going that far away from the steppe. :p It like, well, like Mongols invading Europe, pretty much.

And you were the very definition of amorphous because of it, too.

Originally I was migrating westward, hoping to reach the other side of the continent. Ultimately however that wasn't viable for a variety of geographic reasons, not to mention I had no way of knowing if there was any civilization there. So, I continued to expand the size of the confederacy, warring with other neighboring tribes and amongst ourselves. Then I reunified the confederacy under one ruler in the turn they reappeared on the map.

You'd think there would be something more to surviving a total defeat and exile than that, like cultural and socio-economic adaptations aimed at preserving your ethnic identity and surviving the hardships of an utterly unknown land where your old way of life was, at any rate, challenging to practice while you get used to the new terrain. I also don't recall anyone in real history doing the "run away a great distance for several generations, then come back the way you left and somehow conquer everything despite being isolated from key resources of a steppe empire such as trade income for hundreds of years" trick, but I guess they just weren't imaginative enough. :p
 
Incidences of Das sightings seem to have increased, I hypothesize that news of his death was premature at best. We should all be mindful of the danger of writing off a species prematurely and consigning it the history books. I suspect, that still other extinct species may be rediscovered if proper efforts are put into finding them or as is more likely in inducing them to appear for our benefit.
 
Perhaps with it people can forge their own identity and avatars once more?
 
Incidences of Das sightings seem to have increased, I hypothesize that news of his death was premature at best. We should all be mindful of the danger of writing off a species prematurely and consigning it the history books. I suspect, that still other extinct species may be rediscovered if proper efforts are put into finding them or as is more likely in inducing them to appear for our benefit.

All you people had to do was start/restart some interesting NESes to draw me out. There wasn't much of a point of going here otherwise as I still don't have the time I need to really focus on my NESing project(s).

Abaddon said:
Perhaps with it people can forge their own identity and avatars once more?

Oh bluh bluh bluh, there is no identity like a thoroughly derivative one anyway. More importantly, I've just gotten used to it now. :p
 
I really should get you that budgetary information. Hmmm.
 
ALSO: Someone should make a steppe nomad empire that is distinctly peaceful and mercantile. It'd be kind of like Reasonable Marines if you know what I'm talking about, not to mention not really clashing with what a lot of them actually wanted to have - after all, it has been well argued that Genghis Khan's nonsense about the lamentations of their women was only ever singled out in the Secret History because it was an anomalous view among the Mongols.
Sounds a little like the Yuezhi before the beginning of Xiongnu protagonism and their Thlayli-ish exodus and migration to Issyk-Kul and later Baktria. It's been argued that the jade trade from their control of Dunhuang alone could probably have sustained their empire.
 
lolpoliticsinthephilippines
 
Meh. fivechar
 
Oh, so that's what it was.
 
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