While We Wait: Boredom Strikes Back

[kkmo]

Yeah, the whole point is the mod has to take that responsibility.. you can't leave it to the player.

As it is, the mod has way too much responsibility in these games, while players do next to nothing. Everyone has to carry weight, and players should be punished if they lie on their stats. Another idea is that there could be two "mods" - the main mod, and then perhaps a "police man" that inspects stats. Leaving everything to one person is probably why so many of these games die too early.

I myself know in my NES with 20+ players, I'm leaving it up to players to put updated profiles in their orders. Then I will adjust their stats based on what happens in the update. That gives me more time to write an update, instead of having to tinker with how many companies each clan has and do the math on their koku - even if it is simple addition, it saves time when you have 20+ of them. This way I can just copy and paste the profiles they give me in their orders, and then alter them based on what happens in the update.

 

[Abaddon]

But never mind lying.. you have to write somewhere in your update how the stats have changed, so that the player can make their adjustments. The time you spent detailling these changes could have been just spend doing the stats in the first place.

Simple stat NES, the mod doesn't need help
Complicated stat NES, it would be a waste of time conveying the changes.

 

[GamezRule]

As it is, the mod has way too much responsibility in these games, while players do next to nothing. Everyone has to carry weight, and players should be punished if they lie on their stats. Another idea is that there could be two "mods" - the main mod, and then perhaps a "police man" that inspects stats. Leaving everything to one person is probably why so many of these games die too early.

I myself know in my NES with 20+ players, I'm leaving it up to players to put updated profiles in their orders. Then I will adjust their stats based on what happens in the update. That gives me more time to write an update, instead of having to tinker with how many companies each clan has and do the math on their koku - even if it is simple addition, it saves time when you have 20+ of them. This way I can just copy and paste the profiles they give me in their orders, and then alter them based on what happens in the update.

Might I suggest taking away some of the more annoying parts of orders, like requiring a percentage in spending?

 

[kkmo]

Might I suggest taking away some of the more annoying parts of orders, like requiring a percentage in spending?

The percentage is required because I would like 5% of any amount of koku, whether it be 10,000 or 100,000, to be spent on status quo. I don't see why it is so annoying.

edit: and to prevent people from overloading their military budget...

 

[GamezRule]

It is when you calculate it. Why not just say that the minimum required spending it 5%?

 

[SKILORD]

Maybe the real problem here is one of overly large numbers. Although it has been a few years, I remember Absolution had some big numbers and some really convoluted mechanisms for determining them and statistics (which I remember being my favorite part of updating before that game) did become a nightmare.

I'm just saying, there are probably ways to charge upkeep without getting into percentages. I understand charging upkeep. In the rule set I'm working on there will be both upkeep and also corruption to keep people from overextending their statistics in any one direction, but most of the numbers I am playing with are in the single digits and I've not yet felt compelled to find a percentage.

I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business, just proposing that rather than bringing on an assistant it should be possible to streamline the whole process, both for players and yourself. Maybe instead of percentages just offer a scale to determine rough upkeep costs. 10k troops costs x 25k costs y.

 

[kkmo]

I don't know. Maybe I'm missing something. I think finding percentages, or finding numbers from percentages, is incredibly simple math. Am I in the minority here?

The reason my numbers are so high are because I am using a historical unit of measurement, albeit one that didn't come into wide use until the Edo period - but still. Important to me. The reason I included percentages doesn't have to do with high numbers, though. It has to do with me wanting to see an outline of spending instead of just the raw numbers. That way, I can see symbolically what areas the player is putting importance into. In addition, it provides a system to make sure no one is spending all of their money on the military, and distributing it throughout what is already established in their clan.

But hey, I'm a consensus kind of person. If the majority wants to do away with percentages, then I do away with them. But then I'm going to have to calculate every single budget out of 20 to make sure no one is spending more than 70% of their budget on the military. Which I don't want to do. So then I'll just say, "Okay, spend whatever you want on your military." That's when I start getting a little bit evil, and punishing people severely for not minding their internal factions, or giving gifts to their allies, or maintaining roads in their domain...

 

[Dreadnought]

I think it should be a fundamental practice for the players to send the mod updated stats with their orders, bolding sections they have changed due to spending or recruiting of units. Let the mod then calculate casualties and stability figures afterwards.

 

[kkmo]

I think it should be a fundamental practice for the players to send the mod updated stats with their orders, bolding sections they have changed due to spending or recruiting of units. Let the mod then calculate casualties and stability figures afterwards.

Yes! Bolding or making a different color, etc. This has been really helpful for me so far! Thanks for your input.

 

[Eltain]

Keep the percentages. It's not hard. Google "percentage calculator" if you're having trouble. I know I don't do it by hand.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Well... that works for only some NESes. Immacunes, having people update thier own stats would not work, as Immac doesn't let us know how things change, and we just have to trust his "black box"

 

[Kraznaya]

Okay seriously...

10% is the easiest percentage to calculate of anything, except straight up halving it. To calculate 5%, you take 10% of it and then halve it. If you can't do that, you're probably ******** and shouldn't be nesing.

 

[kkmo]

Okay seriously...

10% is the easiest percentage to calculate of anything, except straight up halving it. To calculate 5%, you take 10% of it and then halve it. If you can't do that, you're probably ******** and shouldn't be nesing.

Thank you for saying what I said, but 100x more effectively.

 

[SKILORD]

its not that its hard math, .05(x) isn't all that complicated, but on a large scale, say 20 of those calculations every turn.... well, you're the one saying you need a backup moderator and also getting your players to do their own statistics. The math isn't too hard, but it could be simpler which would make it easier to industrialize.

But what it comes down to in the end, I think, is that you are just running a totally different game than I ever would. You're emphasizing historical realism with board game aspects for balance. You should build a ruleset for people who want that sort of a game and shouldn't be too worried about appeasing rogue storytellers like myself. I was simply trying to offer an outside perspective because you were talking about problems you had encountered.

 

[North King]

On a large scale, 20 of those calculations should take you about 10 added minutes of updating time. And that accounts for scrolling through whichever document you're using to keep track of it.

 

[SKILORD]

He said, how can I streamline things? I took the evidence that was available to me on this thread without doing research into his game and offered one possible way to streamline things. I don't care if there is multiplication involved or if you're using cosines to determine statistics.

Let's say we're throwing a party. You can say BYOB and shift some of the responsibility off on those who want to attend. In the case of an NES, let's say, Bring your own stats, but if you want to invite the underage (in our case, those who aren't good at math) then you may have to get a keg and take on that responsibility yourself. It's two totally different scenes, and I'm not going to accuse you of prejudice against 18 year olds or those who get squeamish at anything more complex than subtraction. It's just that he was saying the BYOB approach was causing trouble and he was thinking of either getting a bouncer to check the stats and I was just trying to explain that taking on responsibility for those stats has its advantages and if you get cheap beer (simple stats) then its really no problem at all. He said, my beer/stats are cheap/simple enough, and I countered with "just get the cheapest/simplest stuff you can and don't worry about it." If you want to have a classy BYOB party with good beer and historical accuracy then that's all fine and dandy, its just a different scene. There are just simpler/cheaper ways, if you are interested in them. Thats all I was trying to say

 

[kkmo]

There are 7 spending categories, 8 including savings. So that is 10 minutes x 8 = an hour and twenty minutes more to update time. So each player should be responsible for calculating his/her own percentages - I think this is common sense?

And I wasn't saying I wanted a second mod for my game. I was saying that is another idea for other games which might die from over-complicated stats, in which the mod might be overworked. I don't feel my game is complicated in any sense of the word: really quite the contrary! symbolically though, I think it's good game-man-ship to update your own stats, and put in bold what has changed from last turn. And then I will take away what should be taken away or add what should be added based on my update. That way I can focus on writing the update and then implementing the conclusions instead of worrying about whether all seven of each 20 player's spending categories were at least 5% of their total budget. And that is a big reason why I require percentages in my orders. Is it so wrong?

edit: And by the way, no player can take advantage of this. With percentages and raw numbers required in an orderset, I am ensuring ease at viewing and checking orders. If they were just raw numbers, and I had to calculate percentages to check whether they were 5% or higher, then it would be time-consuming and meticulous for a mod already dealing with writing an update. But that isn't the case. I have required raw numbers + percentages in the orderset, and thus have streamlined my updating process - I feel like! I haven't even updated yet. So I definitely do not need another mod - I was more referring to stat-heavy games, which mine is not, or perhaps my game if I took percentages out completely as GamezRule was proposing. But I won't do that, because that is a lot of added time to updating.

 

[Kozmos]

I dont get this system then. A third of the budget is off limits. And then add-on the second third of military upkeep. You have left a half of the original budget or a third (depending on how much you need to pay for upkeep) So why all this pointless calculating when you can just say your budget is 10 000 instead of 30 000. I don't mind math, but it is just a pointless exercise here.

 

[kkmo]

I dont get this system then. A third of the budget is off limits. And then add-on the second third of military upkeep. You have left a half of the original budget or a third (depending on how much you need to pay for upkeep) So why all this pointless calculating when you can just say your budget is 10 000 instead of 30 000. I don't mind math, but it is just a pointless exercise here.

Because those numbers and system of measurement are based on historical accuracies. And because I want to simulate the upkeep of already-existing diplomatic deals and infrastructure.

If I brought everyone's koku down by 30%, I would still require everyone to put money into all 7 categories. This is not a simple board game or war game. This is meant to be a somewhat historically accurate setting, in which domains were spending money on various areas, and not just military. By requiring at least 5%, I am saying that you must be spending in those areas instead of purely focusing on your military. It causes players to be weary of their internal factions and neighbors who they must appease to be successful.

That is why I said earlier that I could easily do away with percentages. But then I would just be a vicious mod, punishing those who were ignoring important aspects of managing their domain. I'm doing this not only for my benefit, but for everyone's (or so I thought...). I didn't think it would be such a big deal, honestly...
Maybe I should have put a notice on this NES, to not join if you cannot play within a somewhat historical account of running a domain in the Sengoku era.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Weary of internal factions or wary? The pun in the typo is quite amusing.