Why not just leave?

[Bozo Erectus]

If you hate the society you live, its culture and traditions, its history, and I guess its people as well, why do you stay? Are you one of those who, when theres a terror attack against your country, or your countrys allies, takes the side of the attacker, and says that your country and people had it coming to them, they deserve it, for being so evil? If you truly believe that, how can you possibly continue to participate in that society? Wouldnt it be more honest to pack up and leave, and set down roots in a society or culture that you truly believe in, and be among people that you like and respect? Its not so hard to imagine, millions of people do just that every year, and immigrate to other parts of the world.

It must be terrible to aid and abet an evil nation and its people by paying taxes into its treasury, and helping to fund all its diabolic schemes around the world. So why dont you leave?

 

[warpus]

If you truly hate the country you live in then you should leave - I agree.

However, criticizing the administration of the country you live in and hating the country you live in are two entirely different things.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Millions of people migrate every year, but very few of those, I dare say, do so due to some basic disagreement with the values of their home culture.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

However, criticizing the administration of the country you live in and hating the country you live in are two entirely different things.

I agree. I myself hate the current administration in my country, but not my country. Im talking about extremists here, not moderates. People who you have never, ever, seen here saying even one positive thing about their society, and instead seem to be fixated on what a malevolent force it is, and always has been in the world.

Millions of people migrate every year, but very few of those, I dare say, do so due to some basic disagreement with the values of their home culture.

I know, mostly its due to economics, but Id say that theres a significant number of people who migrate every year either because they reject their society, or because they arent wanted by their society.

 

[Xenocrates]

Countries change.

If there isn't a functioning democracy in your current nation and you find that correcting its faults is impossible, then you could grab your stuff and take your kids from school and leave (assuming that you can find somewhere to go and have enough money). You could also stay and try to put things right.

Leaving would mean that some countries get depopulated and others filled up. Incidently The US is the favouirite country to emigrate to now, followed by Britain. Clearly some people are following this philosophy and the consequences are well known to us all.

 

[warpus]

I agree. I myself hate the current administration in my country, but not my country. Im talking about extremists here, not moderates. People who you have never, ever, seen here saying even one positive thing about their society, and instead seem to be fixated on what a malevolent force it is, and always has been in the world.

Those people likely wouldn't be happy in any country

But yeah, if somebody walked up to me and started saying how much Canada sucks, I'd have to ask him what he's still doing here.

 

[jamiethearcher]

I did!

that was a joke, i hope goonie sees it. Actually, I left the country of my birth to pursue better opportunities in the US. I still consider myself Canadian, and plan to return one day.....but life is pretty damn good here in the US right now.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Leaving makes sense. Think about it: all your life youve been sucking at the teat of this foul beast you hate so much. You got an excellent education there, and youve honed many skills in your work experience, all within that hateful entity which at the same time was causing so much strife and suffering in the world. What better way to take a stand, than to renounce your citizenship in that country, and go live among its victims, helping in some small way to alleviate the harm your former country has done to it? In other words, youv got a Red Sox cap on and your sitting in the Yankees section, what the hell for?

 

[C~G]

But Bozo, don't you think the very idea of freedom and democracy is to have even such viewpoint that there's something wrong about your country and do something about rather than pack your bags and leave?
Do you want to silence the voice of minority?
That kind of nation is called totalitarian.

You have to see that everyday life might be different from what people think in general level about their country.

I happen to divide things differently:
Government = the current administration and it's values
Nation = the signs of independency and it's history
Country = the nature and culture beyond the nation
People = the people of same bloodline, place of birth, model of behaviour etc.

You may hate your government, despise your nation, like your country and love the people at the same time.

Personally I find my quite often complete outsider in many issues when considering my own nation and even my countrymen in overall but then I happen to remember people that live close where my father's grandmother used to live.
And I know this is my place and these are my people.
Leaving them wouldn't be anything but the ultimate betrayal and for that I don't need to swear oaths for this nation.
All I need is to look these people into their eyes and I know where I belong.

Flags can burn but it's about the heart and the soul.

Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.
- H. L. Mencken

 

[Samson]

If you hate the society you live, its culture and traditions, its history, and I guess its people as well, why do you stay? Are you one of those who, when theres a terror attack against your country, or your countrys allies, takes the side of the attacker, and says that your country and people had it coming to them, they deserve it, for being so evil? If you truly believe that, how can you possibly continue to participate in that society? Wouldnt it be more honest to pack up and leave, and set down roots in a society or culture that you truly believe in, and be among people that you like and respect? Its not so hard to imagine, millions of people do just that every year, and immigrate to other parts of the world.

It must be terrible to aid and abet an evil nation and its people by paying taxes into its treasury, and helping to fund all its diabolic schemes around the world. So why dont you leave?

Because A) I do not think any countries outside the EU (who have no choce) would have me, B) no countries run the way I think they should run and C) I have friends family and a job here.

I think the best way is to try and change the way my country works. I did try once to move back to the country I was born, as others here have said it was for selfish rather than ideological reasons. They would not have me however.

 

[The Last Conformist]

On a related subject, something I never got is immigrants who incessantly complain how much their new country sucks compared to the old one. If that's the case, why don't they go back?

Edit: Got crossposted by Samson, and he's got a good point, of course - there's no guarantee that the old country will have you back. In many cases, tho, I know it would.

Also, sometimes you wonder why they chose to go where they went. I once heard a Muslim guy say he couldn't let his kids live the house unsupervised, because they might interact with Swedish kids. I don't know why he left his ancestral country, but surely he could've gone to a country where he'd not have to worry his children might speak with the locals?

 

[Bronx Warlord]

Bozo were do you come up with this stuff?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

But Bozo, don't you think the very idea of freedom and democracy is to have even such viewpoint that there's something wrong about your country and do something about rather than pack your bags and leave?
Do you want to silence the voice of minority?
That kind of nation is called totalitarian.

No, like I said and as you outline in your post, theres a big difference between not agreeing with an administration, and hating the country and everything it stands for. Im from the US. There are people who can list for you for hours on end, all the evil things the US has ever done, all its atrocities, real and imagined. They'll tell you the country is based on lies, its founders criminals, and its people are evil exploiters who have always benefited from Americas terrible acts around the world. So I cant help but wonder if the person is really just full of crap, because they keep participating in, and benefiting from the system that they denounce.

Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.
- H. L. Mencken

But only a scoundrel would kick his mothers shins as he sucks the milk from her teats.
- Bozo Erectus

Bozo were do you come up with this stuff?

Et tu, Bronxus?

 

[C~G]

So I cant help but wonder if the person is really just full of crap, because they keep participating in, and benefiting from the system that they denounce.

But you missed one of my points.

You have to see that everyday life might be different from what people think in general level about their country.

But only a scoundrel would kick his mothers shins as he sucks the milk from her teats.
- Bozo Erectus

But you have to take into account the possibility that God, the country, or your mother never wanted you.

This what you are referring into is classical fight of invidual vs. society. It happens all the time but nowadays because of our current raise of invidualism and lack of appreciation towards our whatever heritage we may still have and share with others leads into conclusion that some of us live outside the boundaries of society. It's not a wonder it happens in US, because after all it's a young country and ultimately many people live without real roots.

There's no need to move into another country because most of people are living already in different country. They live in US where everything is good and nothing evil has ever happened. You see, that is fantasy too. Quite often it is the only thing people from outside of US see citizen of US doing.

Then there are those that have already moved in their mind into different country. They have given up that anything might be done so they just end up criticizing the society and live everyday life like there's no tomorrow. This is quite usual post-modern syndrome. Society as we know it, might be falling apart. This isn't just US I believe, but everywhere in western countries.

The center of power seems to be moving further away from people so people come aware that it might have always been so. The result is this current cynicist-nihilist movement where everything outside of one's approval is excluded belonging into one's own ego in order to keep this perfect picture of one's life. And sometimes it requires denouncing society and it's values.

There's nothing else to it.
But you aren't seeing US as Disney World either, now are you?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

On a related subject, something I never got is immigrants who incessantly complain how much their new country sucks compared to the old one. If that's the case, why don't they go back?

Edit: Got crossposted by Samson, and he's got a good point, of course - there's no guarantee that the old country will have you back. In many cases, tho, I know it would.

Also, sometimes you wonder why they chose to go where they went. I once heard a Muslim guy say he couldn't let his kids live the house unsupervised, because they might interact with Swedish kids. I don't know why he left his ancestral country, but surely he could've gone to a country where he'd not have to worry his children might speak with the locals?

I know exactly what you mean. I know a Cuban guy who came here in the Mariel boatlift like 25 years ago. He's a posterboy for the American Dream. He's had a wonderful life here in the US, he's rich beyond the wildest dreams he ever had back in Cuba. He's a big, fat, sassy typical American middle class guy, driving around in his SUV, burning more gas in a day than a Cuban family in Cuba does, in a month. Yet he can literally talk your ear off (if you give him a chance) about how evil the US is, always has been, and always will be, according to him. I dont understand it.

 

[Mirc]

Because it is hard to leave. People can have families. Their current houses can be like 5 times smaller than the price of a house in the country they would like to move, and moving somewhere without having a place to live in not acceptable by 99% of the people. Not having a place to work. These are the reasons.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Wouldnt it be more honest to pack up and leave, and set down roots in a society or culture that you truly believe in, and be among people that you like and respect? Its not so hard to imagine, millions of people do just that every year, and immigrate to other parts of the world.

Yes, because if there is one group of people that everyone likes it's immigrants.

Seriously, those people claiming Asylum here from places like Iran and Afghanistan get treated in such a way it suprises me they don't want to go back. I read a report recently about those seeking asylum who have 'slipped the net' and were living rough able to get a job, or any housing due to their status.

I'm not talking illegal immigrants either, although there seems to be little different.

I find the moral preaching of those who, whilst sat in a stable and powerful democracy which seeks to limit the number of immigrants into it's borders, tell those people to leave their friends, family, culture, home, job, for a life of instability and uncertainty quite laughable.

 

[Yoda Power]

nevermind...

 

[The Last Conformist]

So all the jews should have left Germany in 1933? And all the catholics should have left North Ireland in 1922? And all the Tibetans should have left Tibet in 1951?

Right...

Did all German Jews hate German society in 1933? Hint: No.

Did all Catholics hate Northern Irish society in 1922? Hint: No.

Did all Tibetans hate Tibetan society in 1951? Hint: No.

 

[spankey]

I find the moral preaching of those who, whilst sat in a stable and powerful democracy which seeks to limit the number of immigrants into it's borders, tell those people to leave their friends, family, culture, home, job, for a life of instability and uncertainty quite laughable.

I don't think that this is moral preaching. It was simply a question. lets take someone like Noam Chomsky (sp?) or Ward Churchill. Both have gone on record denouncing their countries and supporting other countries in the world with radically different philosophies. They have denounced regardless of politics and administration. Why do they choose to enrich themselves and support the very culture that they denounce? The question is really about them, or people like them. Are they serious about their pronouncements, and if so, why don't they do something about it?