Wilders won - or did he?

Winner

Diverse in Unity
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And the saga continues.

Isn't it funny how the Muslim demonstrators totally vindicate his point? :lol:

Dutch MP hails UK visit 'victory'

Controversial Dutch MP Geert Wilders has hailed his arrival in the UK as a "victory for freedom of speech".

He told a packed press conference in Westminster he was "proud of the UK asylum and immigration tribunal" for overturning the ban.

And he repeated his criticism of Muslim ideology and defended his call for the Koran to be banned in Holland.

His press conference was moved inside amid angry scenes, with demonstrators chanting "Wilders go to hell".

About 40 Muslim protesters gathered outside the Abbey Gardens buildings, opposite the Houses of Parliament, where the hastily rearranged press conference was held.

Held back by a police line, and surrounded by camera crews from around the world, they chanted slogans such as "Sharia for the UK" and "Freedom go to hell" and held up placards saying: "Sharia for the Netherlands" and "Islam will be superior".



(Pictures from the Times website)

''Defend freedom'

One protester, Sayful Islam, said they wanted to see Mr Wilders "tried in an Islamic court" for "insulting the Prophet", adding: "We need to put this dog on a leash".

He described Mr Wilders as "the open voice of democracy" and claimed the Dutch MP's views were shared by "every government in Europe".

Mr Wilders said he was not setting out to insult Muslims - the majority of whom were "law-abiding" - but he defended his right to criticise the actions of a minority who he said posed a threat to society.

"My aim is not to insult anyone but it is to defend freedom," he said.

Asked about the protests that greeted his arrival in Westminster, he said: "I am very proud that people - even if they totally disagree with me - can use their democratic right to protest."

Explaining his views on Islam, he said: "I have a problem with the Islamic ideology, the Islamic culture, because I feel that the more Islam that we get in our societies the less freedom that we get."

He denied his abortive attempt in the Dutch Parliament to get the Koran banned flew in the face of his commitment to free speech.

"Even in the United States, where they have a first amendment, there is one red line, which is the incitement of violence and this was exactly my point," he told reporters.

He also denied responsibility for the publicity which has greeted his visit, saying: "If anybody has responsibility for this publicity it is the UK government and the home secretary and not Geert Wilders."

Mr Wilders, who faces trial at home for inciting hatred, was allowed into the UK after a ban on him was lifted.

The Freedom Party leader was turned away from the UK in February on the grounds that his allegedly anti-Islamic views posed a threat to public security but that decision was overturned earlier this week.

Although agreeing not to challenge the decision, the Home Office has said Mr Wilders' comments will be closely watched by the authorities.

Mr Wilders was invited to the UK by UK Independence Party peer Lord Pearson.

Asked whether he too wanted to ban the Koran, he said: "I disagree with Geert in fact, who has said that if Mein Kampf is banned in Holland, then so the Koran should be banned. I don't agree with that at all.

"I want the Koran discussed very much more and I want it particularly discussed by the 98% or whatever it is of the Muslim community who are mild, peace-loving people.

"But what I want them to do is to get up off their bottoms and take on their violent co-religionists who do base these acts of evil on the Koran."


'Inter-faith violence'

When he tried to visit the UK in February, Mr Wilders was back by immigration officials at Heathrow airport on the grounds that his views could stir up "inter-faith violence".

GEERT WILDERS
  • Nicknamed "Mozart" because of his mane of platinum blond hair
  • Voted politician of the year in 2007 by the Dutch political press,
  • Lives under police protection because of death threats
  • Wants the Koran and the full-length garment, the burka, to be banned

However, on Tuesday the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal ruled there was no evidence to suggest he represented a real and serious threat to the "fundamental interest" of society.

The judges said that even if there had been evidence, it would still have been wrong to turn him away because in the event of any trouble the police would have been able to deal with it.

The Home Office said Mr Wilders' statements and behaviour during his visit "will inevitably impact on any future decisions to admit him".

Officials say his case differs from that of a larger number of individuals - including Islamic extremists and white supremacists - who are on a list of people excluded from Britain for "unacceptable behaviour".

The power to impose such exclusions was introduced in 2005, following the London bombings, and applies predominantly to non-EU nationals who would seek to "foster hatred or promote terrorism".

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8308982.stm

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Oh, here is a Torygraph article with video of the Wilders' speech and the radical demonstration.

.
 
Have fun being bored by Fitna UK. And to answer the question, Wilders has won, since he's in the news again, and we're talking about him :)

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with this ruling.

And he repeated his criticism of Muslim ideology and defended his call for the Koran to be banned in Holland.
PVV, party for freedom, subtext: lets ban this :):):):)
 
the article said:
Controversial Dutch MP Geert Wilders has hailed his arrival in the UK as a "victory for freedom of speech".

two lines down said:
And he repeated his criticism of Muslim ideology and defended his call for the Koran to be banned in Holland.

Oh irony, you never fail to surprise me.

By the way Winner, nice pictures from the article.
 
Oh irony, you never fail to surprise me.

Maybe if you people read the article...

He denied his abortive attempt in the Dutch Parliament to get the Koran banned flew in the face of his commitment to free speech.

"Even in the United States, where they have a first amendment, there is one red line, which is the incitement of violence and this was exactly my point," he told reporters.

By the way Winner, nice pictures from the article.

The pictures are from the Times (BBC didn't include any).
 
"Even in the United States, where they have a first amendment, there is one red line, which is the incitement of violence and this was exactly my point," he told reporters.

No, he needs to read his constitutional law better. Unprotected speech comes in a couple of classes. Relevent ones are these two:

Fighting words are unprotected, but fighting words is speech that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace.

Speech that causes, or has is its purpose "imminent lawless action" (e.g. a riot) is also unprotected.

In both cases, speech is protected unless it incites direct harm. Freedom of religion aside, the Qu'ran would absolutely be protected by the first amendment. If you compare it to Mein Kampf, it's absolutely protected.

So yeah, he's still against freedom of speech.
 
Oh irony, you never fail to surprise me.

By the way Winner, nice pictures from the article.
This. Both sentences. It's idiots like the Muslims in the pictures that give all of them a bad name. And the Quran does not incite violence. No more than any other religious text. I'd suggest banning the Bible, but I suspect Winner would agree with me on that anyway, so it isn't really a good analogy to use in this thread.
 
40 protestors...
Not really anything worthy of notice, honestly. You don't need a big community of anything to find 40 crackpots from it.
 
Maybe if you people read the article...




The pictures are from the Times (BBC didn't include any).

I watched the afternoon report on the BBC about this. The "demonstrators" didn't have any of the "sharia law in the UK" signs up they had the lesser more moderate ones. Its a fact BBC is biased.
 
Those 40 Muslims definitely represent the Muslim population in Europe. It's statistical!
 
Yes, SS-18 ICBM, several times around here such reasoning has been demonstrated that any sample of, say, 40 people as above would apply to an entire population of 200,000,000,000. More than enough for a proper normal or t-distribution, right?
 
40 protestors...
Not really anything worthy of notice, honestly. You don't need a big community of anything to find 40 crackpots from it.

I am sure you'd find a way to downplay it even if 40,000 nutjobs attended the demonstration.

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Anyway, did any major Islamic organization in the UK denounced the demonstrators carrying these banners ("freedom go to hell")? I am just asking.
 


Freedom can go to hell?

Would be slightly amusing if the policeman bludgeoned his brains out with a nightstick for no reason.
 
I would have though major organisations, Islamic or not, would have better things to do than denounce 40-man protests.
 
I am sure you'd find a way to downplay it even if 40,000 nutjobs attended the demonstration.
No, 40 000 is a big number that indicate a real large current of opinion. 40 isn't.

And your systematic accusation of partisanship to everyone and everything that doesn't match your view is pretty childish.

Yeah, someone actually notice that 40 people isn't a big enough sample to judge a whole population, it surely means they have agenda ! :rolleyes:
I mean, it couldn't be simple common sense. No, no.
 
I would have though major organisations, Islamic or not, would have better things to do than denounce 40-man protests.

Like protesting against another Muhammad cartoon? Oh, I get it, it's much more important than distancing oneself from a band of islamofascists (for once, I'll use the term because it fits here).


To anybody who's been living on the same planet as me for the past 8 years it must be clear that Muslims in Western world have a bad reputation. Perhaps if they actually tried to actively distance themselves from radicalism every single time it's needed, people would not be so prone to jumping to conclusions.

Unfortunately, that's not the case, is it? Evidently, denouncing people who are relating their religion to extreme anti-liberalism and anti-secularism is not high on their agenda.


I wonder how the British people would react if a demonstration of few dozen fascists holding banners like "Islam go to hell" or "Islam will be eradicated from UK" greeted some Muslim visitor. Something tells me there would be tons of articles denouncing them, and similar statements from leading politicians.

When the situation is reversed, there is just this overwhelming silence. Very interesting.
 
Anyway, did any major Islamic organization in the UK denounced the demonstrators carrying these banners ("freedom go to hell")? I am just asking.
I hope not.

Recognising the loonies and showing them you pay attention is the worst thing you can do to them. Major organisations have repeatedly denounced this sort of thing in general in the past.
 
I hope not.

Recognising the loonies and showing them you pay attention is the worst thing you can do to them. Major organisations have repeatedly denounced this sort of thing in general in the past.

And they should be doing it over and over again, otherwise they become at least partially responsible - especially if they are usually so vocal about other issues (like people who are making fun of their religion). Your firm belief that ignoring a troublesome minority will make it disappear is sadly not very realistic.
 
And they should be doing it over and over again, otherwise they become at least partially responsible
How?
- especially if they are usually so vocal about other issues (like people who are making fun of their religion). Your firm belief that ignoring a troublesome minority will make it disappear is sadly not very realistic.
That's not my believe. Want to try again?
 
How? That's not my believe. Want to try again?

No, it would be a waste of time.

---

Statement by Muslim Council of Britain, the largest and allegedly moderate Muslim org. in the UK:



MCB on Geert Wilders

The Muslim Council of Britain today re-iterated the widely held view that the far right Dutch politician Geert Wilders is a relentless preacher of hate. The MCB neither condones nor condemns the decision to allow him into the United Kingdom, but it objects to the rapturous welcome he is receiving in the name of free speech.

Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, MCB Secretary General said: "At a time of heightened tension, with the unprecedented rise of the far right, we must all pull together and focus on points of unity and cohesion. Our unhealthy obsession with divisive figures only bolsters their objective to sow discord on the streets of Britain".

[ENDS]

The Muslim Council of Britain is the UK's largest Muslim umbrella body with around 500 affiliated national, regional and local organisations, mosques, charities and schools.

For further information please contact the MCB:

They found time to denounce Wilders, but not a single word of denouncement for the "freedom go to hell" radicals. Oh, there is the nice line that it is in fact the (non-muslim) far-right who is responsible for "discord".

With utter hypocrisy like that, it's not very hard to question what interests is this organization defending.
 
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