Would the World be Better or Worse if WW2 Never Happened?

[hobbsyoyo]

So did the leadership reject their use because of their conscious or because they considered MAD factor? I guess it was some combination of both but I feel it was mostly the latter, by a pretty big margin.

For some reason I doubt that the nuke option was rejected because of bleeding American hearts.

Russia didn't really have enough bombs or delivery methods at that point to make MAD a factor. That really became a thing after the introduction of ICBM's and the stockpiling of huge atomic arsenals. And I don't think we put much weight on them sending suicide nuclear bombing missions (they had a B-29 copy that could go one-way to the US, but that was pretty much it and it likely would've been shot down long before it got on target) to retaliate against us if we didn't strike them directly. That said, I'm sure it came up.

As for the bleeding hearts, IIRC, Americans were in favor of the nuking. But Truman judged it wasn't worth the fall out (no pun intended) to nuke straight across the 52nd parallel or whatever it was that MacAurthur wanted.

 

[Lord Baal]

Russia didn't really have enough bombs or delivery methods at that point to make MAD a factor. That really became a thing after the introduction of ICBM's and the stockpiling of huge atomic arsenals. And I don't think we put much weight on them sending suicide nuclear bombing missions (they had a B-29 copy that could go one-way to the US, but that was pretty much it and it likely would've been shot down long before it got on target) to retaliate against us if we didn't strike them directly. That said, I'm sure it came up.

As for the bleeding hearts, IIRC, Americans were in favor of the nuking. But Truman judged it wasn't worth the fall out (no pun intended) to nuke straight across the 52nd parallel or whatever it was that MacAurthur wanted.

We should also take the fact that MacArthur was a frigging nut job who directly challenged the President's authority in the media and Congress into account. It would have been difficult, politically, for Truman to return to the nuclear option after he sacked MacArthur for publicly supporting it.

 

[ParkCungHee]

He should have fired him for the myriad other even better reasons to fire MacArthur.

 

[Lord Baal]

He should have fired him for the myriad other even better reasons to fire MacArthur.

MacArthur shouldn't have been fired. Hr should have been shot as a traitor. If not in 1950, then definitely in 1941.

 

[Dachs]

Incompetence and treason are not the same thing.

 

[Lord Baal]

Incompetence and treason are not the same thing.

At best he was worfully incompetent. But his actions on December 8, 1941 are explainable only by two things:

1. He was one of the most incompetent generals in American history, with absolutely no understanding of warfare (admittedly true).

2. He deliberately avoided attacking the Japanese in Formosa or taking any other provocative measures in an attempt to keep the Philippines neutral. His payment of something on the order of half a million US$ by the Filipino President certainly points in this direction.

I know MacArthur was a woefully incompetent moron, but I find it difficult to believe that he would intentionally sabotage his own subordinate's attempts to scatter his aircraft or even launch reconnaisance flights over Formosa out of incompetence alone.

 

[r16]

or rather it is some kinda racist disbelief that the Japanese attack could be that effective in Pearl Harbour . Which adds to orders will be followed line but that it becomes a straight conspiracy discussion .

 

[Kraznaya]

We would live in a better world if MacArthur had been court martialed in 1941.

 

[Lord Baal]

We would live in a better world if MacArthur had been court martialed in 1941.

Now that's indisputable.

 

[Cutlass]

At the very least he should have been relieved of duty and sent packing in 1941. No good came of keeping him in uniform.

 

[Lord Baal]

At the very least he should have been relieved of duty and sent packing in 1941. No good came of keeping him in uniform.

It covered FDR's arse for his own piss-poor decision-making. That was deemed necessary. He also misinformed his superiors about exactly how badly he'd messed up. By the time they realized they'd already settled on using Kimmel and Short as scapegoats for their own incompetence, and relieving MacArthur of command too would have made it obvious that the administration had royally cocked things up in the Pacific.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

It covered FDR's arse for his own piss-poor decision-making. That was deemed necessary. He also misinformed his superiors about exactly how badly he'd messed up. By the time they realized they'd already settled on using Kimmel and Short as scapegoats for their own incompetence, and relieving MacArthur of command too would have made it obvious that the administration had royally cocked things up in the Pacific.

Also, for some reason the Australian Government liked him in the early part of the war. Despite the fact that he refused to integrate Australian or Dutch officers into his "Allied Command", constantly insulted the Australian military as worthless, and took the credit for Australian victories in New Guinea despite never setting foot there or giving any real operational orders in 42.

He should have been removed from command when he submitted his first offensive proposal to the Joint Chiefs and they thought it was bathorsehockey crazy. IHMO he should have committed harakiri for getting embarrassed in the Philippines like a punk.

 

[Lord Baal]

Also, for some reason the Australian Government liked him in the early part of the war. Despite the fact that he refused to integrate Australian or Dutch officers into his "Allied Command", constantly insulted the Australian military as worthless, and took the credit for Australian victories in New Guinea despite never setting foot there or giving any real operational orders in 42.

He should have been removed from command when he submitted his first offensive proposal to the Joint Chiefs and they thought it was bathorsehockey crazy. IHMO he should have committed harakiri for getting embarrassed in the Philippines like a punk.

I've never come across any appreciation for him in Australian circles. Admittedly, this is seventy years after the fact.

 

[r16]

it has been argued he was about on the right track when he suggested the USN offensive across the Pasific was wrong in about 1943 , as the American material superiority was not what it would be in '44 or '45 . Concentrating on the axis he commanded might have given better results , though ı would be first to agree that he offered the scheme only because he would command the troops .

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

I've never come across any appreciation for him in Australian circles. Admittedly, this is seventy years after the fact.

When he first arrived in Australia after the Philippines the Ausie government though that he was the greatest thing since Kangaroo meat. But that quickly changed...

it has been argued he was about on the right track when he suggested the USN offensive across the Pasific was wrong in about 1943 , as the American material superiority was not what it would be in '44 or '45 . Concentrating on the axis he commanded might have given better results , though ı would be first to agree that he offered the scheme only because he would command the troops .

Macarthur’s first offensive proposal that he submitted to the Joint Chiefs was so stupid, they considered replacing him on the spot. He wanted to launch an offensive in late 42 through New Guinea and through the Bismarck Archipelago and slice right up the middle to Turk. He honestly thought he could do this with the scraped together American, Dutch, and Australian airforce, the crappy mixed Australian/American naval units around Australia, and with the Australian, Dutch, and American ground forces the had scraped together in Australia. Despite the fact that the vast majority of the American troops were construction and engineering guys and over half of the Australian troops were militia that legally couldn’t leave the Island. He made this plan without consulting Australian officers, who he didn’t trust (despite the fact that they were trying to tell him there were no major roads in New Guinea) and while Guadalcanal was heating up, thus making the possibility of reinforcements and resupply unavailable and a large part of the Japanese Navy operating right smack dab where he was planning to attack.

 

[Lord Baal]

When he first arrived in Australia after the Philippines the Ausie government though that he was the greatest thing since Kangaroo meat. But that quickly changed...



Macarthur’s first offensive proposal that he submitted to the Joint Chiefs was so stupid, they considered replacing him on the spot. He wanted to launch an offensive in late 42 through New Guinea and through the Bismarck Archipelago and slice right up the middle to Turk. He honestly thought he could do this with the scraped together American, Dutch, and Australian airforce, the crappy mixed Australian/American naval units around Australia, and with the Australian, Dutch, and American ground forces the had scraped together in Australia. Despite the fact that the vast majority of the American troops were construction and engineering guys and over half of the Australian troops were militia that legally couldn’t leave the Island. He made this plan without consulting Australian officers, who he didn’t trust (despite the fact that they were trying to tell him there were no major roads in New Guinea) and while Guadalcanal was heating up, thus making the possibility of reinforcements and resupply unavailable and a large part of the Japanese Navy operating right smack dab where he was planning to attack.

I almost wish he'd tried it. At least then he'd have gone down in history as the incompetent fool he was.

 

[ParkCungHee]

You know, if nearly losing the entire Marine Corp, which was only saved by an act of insubordination, didn't besmirch his reputation, I don't know what could.

 

[King Kalmah]

You know, if nearly losing the entire Marine Corp, which was only saved by an act of insubordination, didn't besmirch his reputation, I don't know what could.

Well he was charismatic and nothing sticks in the popular culture better then a catchphrase...(he had that "I'll return")

Plus it doesn't hurt when your descendents and future generations name everything after you....Look at Southern California...we literally named everything after the guy....

The only reason Orange County calls it John Wayne Airport is because the Duke was the most famous person(acting/golden age of Cowboys/Hollywood) during that time period,but they did name the major road in Irvine after MacArthur....Park in Los Angeles comes to mind as well...

I think the only reason they named it all after him is to trick really stupid people and tourists into thinking he was a great general..."well he has a park and yada yada yada named after him.He must have been (insert compliment here)....

 

[r16]

ı would base my claim on John Ellis' Brute Force and as a generalized theme . Personally would have supported USN "ground" offensive across the Pasific , had ı been there .

 

[Catastrophe90]

Imagine that a time traveller went back to 1933, killed Hitler, and caused WW2 to never happen.

I wouldn't say WW2 wouldn't happen. Imperial Japan still exists even if Hitler dies, and a Japanese expansion war in the Pacific would drag in the Netherlands, France, the British Empire, the US, China and probably the Soviet Union too, so there's your World War. It'll just be more centered around Asia.

That said, I don't know how much of a factor German support was in the Japanese decision to war against Westerners. Maybe without Nazi Germany Imperial Japan would have avoided war for other, more subtle methods?