Zimmerman Not guilty

[Yeekim]

Notice it says absolutely nothing about appearing "behind" him. It is also refuted in Zimmerman's own walkthrough with the police.

All right, it says "out of nowhere".

And yes, perhaps Martin did hit a scary stalker in the face once. Wouldn't you if you thought your life might be threatened by some stranger who weighs 40 pounds more than you do who keeps following you?

He did not "perhaps" hit him, he very obviously did. And I don't know where you take "once" from. Especially given that Z had injuries on the back of his head as well.
Why would I immediately start fearing for my life merely because someone is following me? And if I really feared for my life, I would either try to escape or surrender my valuables. If I thought I have a chance in a fight, I would not hit before trying to clarify the situation with words.

Why is it so obvious to you that Zimmerman can defend himself while Martin can't?

?

 

[Formaldehyde]

All right, it says "out of nowhere".

Which is apparently another lie or deliberate exaggeration given that Martin had two flashlights. He was clearly not heading back to his car as he claimed, and which he had more than ample time to do so.

He did not "perhaps" hit him, he very obviously did.

Yet there was no blood on Martin's hands or underneath his fingernails despite even more lies that Zimmerman told that he pinched his nose and even put his hand over his mouth to suffocate him and to keep him calling out for help.

There were no cuts or abrasions on Martin's hands except for a slight abrasion on one finger of his left hand. He is right handed.

There were apparently very few punches thrown despite what Zimmerman claimed to the contrary. They seemed to have been wrestling with each other more than anything else, including while standing up which revealed another of Zimmerman's incessant lies.

And I don't know where you take "once" from. Especially given that Z had injuries on the back of his head as well.

They were extremely minor and could have even been self-inflicted by moving backwards and losing his balance on a wet sidewalk. Scalp wounds bleed profusely.

Why would I immediately start fearing for my life merely because someone is following me?

Why would you "immediately start fearing for your life" while struggling with someone when you know the cops will be there any minute?

And if I really feared for my life, I would either try to escape or surrender my valuables. If I thought I have a chance in a fight, I would not hit before trying to clarify the situation with words.

Only Martin wasn't a criminal who was trying to take anybody's "valuables". Zimmerman had ample opportunities to "clarify the situation with words", but decided not to do so a number of times including during the 40 second scuffle.

We have no idea who instigated the physical confrontation other than the statements of a known serial liar who had falsely decided an innocent kid was a hardened criminal who "always get away". But we do know that Martin was still on the phone with his friend. Would you start a fight with someone while talking on the phone and the earbuds still in your ears? Or would you tell them you would call them back?

 

[Yeekim]

damages, blood, etc

All I know is that afterwards, one guy was dead with no injuries but a bruised knuckle (and a bullethole). Another was alive, but somewhat beat up.
No matter how I look at it, I can't see the living guy starting that fight.

Why would you "immediately start fearing for your life" while struggling with someone when you know the cops will be there any minute?

I believe that if one guy attacks another and starts punching his face in, the other guy has a right to use his weapon. Whether I personally would do it, depends on circumstances that lead to such situation. Whether or not the one attacked needs to "fear for his life" is irrelevant.

Only Martin wasn't a criminal who was trying to take anybody's "valuables" and Zimmerman had ample opportunities to "clarify the situation with words", but decided not to do so a number of times.

I don't think he was the attacker, so he was not given any opportunity to clarify anything.

 

[Formaldehyde]

All I know is that afterwards, one guy was dead with no injuries but a bruised knuckle (and a bullethole). Another was alive, but somewhat beat up.
No matter how I look at it, I can't see the living guy starting that fight.

And why is that? Because he isn't a scary black teen?

I believe that if one guy attacks another and starts punching his face in, the other guy has a right to use his weapon.

I think that is absolutely sick, and it should be the reason that the vast majority of concealed carry permits are revoked immediately.

And Martin didn't "punch his face in". The physical evidence shows that is simply not true.

I don't think he was the attacker, so he was not given any opportunity to clarify anything.

Zimmerman could have done so at the kiosk from the safety of his truck. He could have done so at the T before the physical confrontation even started. He could have done so after it started. Yet he didn't. Instead he immediately came to the false conclusion that Martin must be a criminal who wouldn't "always get away" this time.

But most of all, he could have simply stayed in his truck instead of pursuing a scared teen into a dark area. He could have gotten the street address from the condo he passed as he ran after Martin. He could have even gotten the street address from the condo on the other street and still had ample time to return to his car.

But he did none of that. Instead, he incessantly lied about what did occur while taking the life of an innocent child a minute before the police finally got there. And even after he deliberately shot Martin in the heart at point blank range, he sat on top of him until he died instead of calling for an ambulance or trying to keep him alive.

Afterwards, he was completely unemotional about it because this "punk" didn't "always get away".

 

[Farm Boy]

Nah. I didn't mean the verdict itself.
I meant the prosecutor's claim. Even after a verdict that would be hailed as "good" saying such a thing would be... odd.

Why would that be?

 

[Lone Wolf]

If he had a gun with him, should he have specifically left it behind? After all, it proved to be exactly the kind of situation where having a gun was useful: he got attacked.

Did he already have a pre-loaded gun, which he carried with himself all the time, or did he load it after he decided to interrogate Martin? This is significant, since it reflects on Zimmerman's intention in worst case regarding Martin - "oh no, he's attacking me phew I have a gun" vs "I may need to kill specifically that fellow". I feel that worst possible version of Martin's behaviour establishes him to be hypothetically liable for prosecution for assault, but doesn't remove much responsibility from Zimmerman.

Has everything been the same, but Martin died because Zimmerman punched him, he hit his head on the pavement and cracked his skull open, I don't think that there would be anything court-level definite you could blame Zimmerman on.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Has everything been the same, but Martin died because Zimmerman punched him, he hit his head on the pavement and cracked his skull open, I don't think that there would be anything court-level definite you could blame Zimmerman on.

That is quite likely true because Zimmerman wasn't black.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Asking someone who he is and what is his business is not treating someone as guilty. Goes without saying that one needs to be civil while doing so, but it is often a justified question.

And sure, you have to take account behavior. But that is very subtle. A person "just walking down the street" may very obviously be suspect. I used to have a summer job working as a clerk in a store while back in high school. Also had to perform as security and after a while, recognizing someone up to no good often became easy.

When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When you begin with the assumption that someone is up to trouble, you will create trouble. Someone walking down the street is not suspect, it's a perfectly legal action. The only reason this might appear suspect is if one is attributing characteristics, motives, and future actions to him because of his appearance. And that is profiling.

 

[JohnRM]

When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When you begin with the assumption that someone is up to trouble, you will create trouble. Someone walking down the street is not suspect, it's a perfectly legal action. The only reason this might appear suspect is if one is attributing characteristics, motives, and future actions to him because of his appearance. And that is profiling.

A tiring analogy, to be sure.

The very act of walking down the street can be done in a manner that may cause someone to have reasonable suspicion that you might be up to something nefarious. In this case, Zimmerman was correct. This was a gated community and this kid did not belong in it. That is hardly a significant legal infraction, but nonetheless, he was doing something wrong by virtue of the fact that he was even on that street.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Um, why? Is being on the street of gated communities where you don't live illegal in America? Strange country. And how is it gun-requiring nefarious in any case?

 

[Formaldehyde]

The very act of walking down the street can be done in a manner that may cause someone to have reasonable suspicion that you might be up to something nefarious. In this case, Zimmerman was correct. This was a gated community and this kid did not belong in it. That is hardly a significant legal infraction, but nonetheless, he was doing something wrong by virtue of the fact that he was even on that street.

But "this kid" did "belong" there as a guest of one of the condo owners. And he wasn't "walking down the street" as Zimmerman lied. He was at the mailbox kiosk staying out of the rain while talking to his friend. If Martin had been holding a cell phone up to his ear instead of using earbuds, Zimmerman may have very well ignored him. But it is doubtful given that he was wearing a dreaded hoodie as well.

Um, why? Is being on the street of gated communities where you don't live illegal in America? Strange country. And how is it gun-requiring nefarious in any case?

Actually, no, it isn't unless there are posted no trespassing signs. The streets are likely even public property which were paid for by taxpayer dollars.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

I was shocked when I heard this, from everything I've read about it he seemed guilty.

 

[Berzerker]

Why would you even approach a kid that you don't know armed with a gun if he's not breaking into a house or something?

Z didn't approach him, he tried to stay close enough so the cops would have a better idea of his location when they arrived. But Z lost him when M entered the T so he got sidetracked looking for an address to give the cops before finally agreeing with the dispatch to meet the cops back at his truck.

An armed guy in a car following me for no apparent reason? That sounds like it constitutes a pretty big threat to my safety. At the least, it constitutes stalking.

M asked why he was following and Z asked what he was doing there - that is not how a "stalker" would respond. I've been in strange neighborhoods and I've been asked what I was doing there, I didn't attack the concerned neighbor and if I had their self defense would be justified.

So, the defence claimed that Zimmerman followed Martin, lost him, then suddenly had Martin confront him from behind? Did I get that right? Is that actually established by the court, or did the court claim that it can't definitely disprove this version of events?

Its established by statements made by Z and M's GF and it took a minute or 2 before Z walked by M a 2nd time

 

[Lone Wolf]

I don't see so far how the exact nature of Martin confronting Zimmerman is proved by either of the two, to be honest. Did Martin tell his GF "I'm gonna attack this cracker as soon as he shows his face to me again" or what? Martin threw punches at Zimmerman, that's evident. What establishes the "suddenly" and "from behind"?

 

[Antilogic]

You can tell when people are too into a case when they start referring to individuals by their initials and then by single letters.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I must say I am quite impressed with the deductive qualities of the natives here. Or rather the faith they have in their deductive qualities.

Impressed Z is impressed.

 

[Antilogic]

I, Captain Ob[li]vious, live to serve.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I, Captain Ob[li]vious, live to serve.

Wahey! You took my remark and applied to to a whole new abstract level in the thread I hadn't even conceived (I used that word but I don't think that word means what I think it means)

Well played indeed. Impressed Z is now in awe.

 

[Berzerker]

Angela Corey (?) just watched a jury acquit Z of murder and she called him a murderer. Can she be sued for slander?

I don't see so far how the exact nature of Martin confronting Zimmerman is proved by either of the two, to be honest. Did Martin tell his GF "I'm gonna attack this cracker as soon as he shows his face to me again" or what? Martin threw punches at Zimmerman, that's evident. What establishes the "suddenly" and "from behind"?

According to Z he walked back thru the T and M came at him from behind asking why he was following. The GF said M told her the creepy ass cracker was back and she then hears M ask Z why he was following. The two corroborate the beginning of the confrontation and M was the aggressor. Now M stood there near that T while Z was walking back and forth and went unnoticed - that means he was hiding and it also explains why Z had the impression M came out of bushes. He probably did, it was raining and there were bushes along walls under over hangs.

You can tell when people are too into a case when they start referring to individuals by their initials and then by single letters.

I'd call that expediency, but I haven't used GZ and TM, one letter is enough

priorities

 

[Lone Wolf]

she then hears M ask Z why he was following

I wouldn't call it "aggression". If Martin began it, he started it by punching, not by asking.