2020 Election Thread!!!!!!!!!

No. Not even remotely. This is just more projection by you. Please quote the post where I asked for this. This is just your personal windmill-dragon that you are always trying to slay even when it doesn't even exist. My advice is to just set it down and let it go, you are way off topic.
Hmmm.

One obvious reason, is that until a woman... black, jew, muslim, gay, etc actually gets nominated, people can comfortably say (or hide behind, depending on your perspective) "Oh I'm not opposed to XYZ type of person... I'm not a X-ist!"... but when that XYZ type of person is actually on the ballot, you have to switch (genuinely or not) to "Oh I'm not opposed to XYZ type of person... Im just opposed to that particular XYZ person... just give me an XYZ that I like and I'll vote for them... afterall, I'm not a X-ist!"
Fine. More generic than black. I gave a concrete example of something that actually discussed during rampant accusations of racism against blacks generally and Barack Obama personally.

Don't give me "not remotely."

J
 
Fine. More generic than black. I gave a concrete example of something that actually discussed during rampant accusations of racism against blacks generally and Barack Obama personally. Don't give me "not remotely."
Yes J, I am giving you "Not remotely", because its accurate... see, while the bolded is your pet issue, ie "false accusations of racism against Republicans (and/or J personally)"... its not remotely the topic I was discussing with Boots. In this instance its just a windmill and you're tilting at it. Second, yes J, I am giving you "Not remotely", because you said:
You wanted a black Republican.
I asked you to show me where I said anything about "black Republicans" and you respond by quoting:
until a woman... black, jew, muslim, gay, etc actually gets nominated
So number one, notice that nowhere did I say anything about "black Republicans", you just launched yourself onto that tangent because again, that's your pet issue. And you do this all the time... you see the word "black" or "white", zero in on that single word like a laser and immediately start tilting at the "false accusations of racism" dragon/windmill. Now reading it again, you realize that the word was tangential at best... How about this, just remove the word "black" from my comment. My point is still exactly the same, and still sound... but now you don't even care about the topic anymore do you?... Because now your windmill-mirage has disappeared. Again J, this is a classic case of "Your so vain...you probably think..." Your tangent is completely out of left field. Just because you're obsessed with "false accusations of racism" doesn't mean that every post contains some hidden false accusation of racism against you. Everything isn't about you J.

Number two, notice how you zero in on the word "black" and completely miss the actual point of the statement which is the words I bolded above, "gets nominated". Notice I didn't mention by any party, because again, the parties are irrelevant to the point I'm making. I said "gets nominated". That's another reason why your Condi Rice tangent is so way off base. I said until a woman (or whatever) actually gets nominated, the "Oh I would vote for a woman (or whatever)" statement isn't actually put to the test. But once it is actually being tested because a woman (or whatever) gets nominated, then and only then does the continued refusal to vote for a woman (or whatever) require some additional qualification/explanation/disclaimer etc. That was my point, but you missed that because you saw the word "black" and your windmill appeared and turned into a dragon and now you're determined to slay it. Again, just let it go.
 
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In other news, Condi has just endorsed the guy for Attorney General who said he had no problem with the KKK until he found out they smoked pot.
Oh, what a world we live in.
 
I doubt someone being a Hindu would rile folks up the way being a Muslim would.

She's a frigging pagan. Of course she would.
 
Do you Americans have any Sikhs senators, mayors, etc.? Or is it pretty much Christians everywhere?

Ethnic minorities tend to cluster, so almost certainly. That isn't saying much.
 
Not if you believe metalhead. He says they are forced together.

J

So? All I'm saying is that the election of a Sikh or Hindu mayor somewhere doesn't say much about the voting base as a whole.
 
It's not out of place, its accurate. Like I said if it makes you personally uncomfortable, its projection on your part... you're feeling attacked because of things internal to you.
No Boots you were right, I see now that we just disagree. I interpreted your statement as meaning that Hillary had produced/forced a change in what people say, but you meant that she's entirely changed the way people think and perceive women. I don't buy that and I'm not sure there is enough data to make the bolded conclusion anyway, especially not as it relates to the POTUS election, which is what we're talking about here. We've elected 44 Presidents and 43 of them have been "straight white Christian men" and the one who was "someone else" was straight Christian male... and even that variance created substantial, non-negligible suspicion that he was not in the second category, to his detriment... no Boots, the categories still matter I think. It seems pretty obvious.

But all that is beside the point. Part of the electorate thinks "Pfft, sexism doesn't even exist anymore, or its overblown" and part of the electorate thinks "As long as I'm theoretically open to electing a woman, there's no issue." You can't really tell the difference between a "I won't vote for a woman" vote and a "I won't vote for that woman vote"... they both count the same. I've shared my observation here how I've noticed many husband-wife divides whereby the husbands seem irked by the "feminism" angle and thereby more sympathetic to Trump as a result of it. However, I cant say what percentage of voters are influenced by gender... in a sense it doesn't matter because you can't tell the difference. You seem to be saying sexism no longer exists as it relates to POTUS elections, because Hillary basically cured that... Is that right? Anyway, my point, which connects to yours, is that partly because of the stuff we're both saying, the feminism approach to the POTUS campaign is a failure and will continue to fail.

My argument is a narrow one: I can't find evidence that women, blacks, or Hispanics get a reduced share of the overall vote in elections after controlling for their party affiliation and ideology. We only have three presidential elections to work with here, and it may turn out that presidential elections work differently than all the others, but I think Senate and gubernatorial elections don't show obvious gender- or race-related biases in their results. I haven't done the analysis, so I don't know for sure, but nothing jumps out at me as unusual about margins of elections with women vs. men, or Obama-style black men vs white men. I don't think that categories don't matter, but they don't seem to have obvious electoral effects. Nearly all Republicans would vote for a Republican woman, even a black Republican woman as seen in the J-verse. I think we can take the vast majority of "I wouldn't vote for that woman" claims as valid.

In Hillary's case, there were factors that had to do with her gender. In particular, the shrill and annoying character of her voice is a gendered speaking problem - men are never described as "shrill". Some of the attacks would have been different if she were a man, as well, and Trump's misogynistic behavior drove an unusually large gender divide. I guess the question to ask would be this: what if an unpopular male establishment Democrat, like Harry Reid, had run? It's possible the results would be different, but I don't even know in which direction - he may have lost even worse.

What I'm saying about her is that she helped bring the country to a place where a woman running for president as a major party nominee is totally normal, even though it hadn't happened before 2016. She certainly didn't vanquish sexism in politics or anything

Sadly, this is exactly wrong... Hindus and Sikhs get lumped in with Muslims, and subjected to the same vitriol, violence and outright attacks that people subject Muslims to.
Those hate crimes seem to be entirely because they are confused for Muslims by ignorant attackers. Sikhs in particular are more likely to be attacked than Muslims, because the sort of person who would attack someone for wearing a turban isn't the kind that would know that observant Sikh men wear turbans for religious reasons, while Muslim men rarely do.

In Tulsi Gabbard's case specifically, she actually doesn't have especially liberal views on Muslims and is a fan of the BJP in India. That to me is a feature, not a bug - it shuts down a line of attack and makes her look much less like an SJW, and nobody would confuse her for a Muslim.
 
My argument is a narrow one: I can't find evidence that women, blacks, or Hispanics get a reduced share of the overall vote in elections after controlling for their party affiliation and ideology. We only have three presidential elections to work with here, and it may turn out that presidential elections work differently than all the others, but I think Senate and gubernatorial elections don't show obvious gender- or race-related biases in their results. I haven't done the analysis, so I don't know for sure, but nothing jumps out at me as unusual about margins of elections with women vs. men, or Obama-style black men vs white men. I don't think that categories don't matter, but they don't seem to have obvious electoral effects. Nearly all Republicans would vote for a Republican woman, even a black Republican woman as seen in the J-verse. I think we can take the vast majority of "I wouldn't vote for that woman" claims as valid. In Hillary's case, there were factors that had to do with her gender. In particular, the shrill and annoying character of her voice is a gendered speaking problem - men are never described as "shrill". Some of the attacks would have been different if she were a man, as well, and Trump's misogynistic behavior drove an unusually large gender divide. I guess the question to ask would be this: what if an unpopular male establishment Democrat, like Harry Reid, had run? It's possible the results would be different, but I don't even know in which direction - he may have lost even worse. What I'm saying about her is that she helped bring the country to a place where a woman running for president as a major party nominee is totally normal, even though it hadn't happened before 2016. She certainly didn't vanquish sexism in politics or anything.
There's a bunch here that I don't agree with, but rather than TL;DR and start a whole bunch of tangents all at once, I will say that one point we agree on is that Hillary's gender was a negative factor in this election for multiple reasons. What stands out to me in retrospect is that the most common reason I heard given for people opposing/disliking her was that she wasn't "honest and trustworthy"... but I ask, what politician is honest and trustworthy? We universally view politicians as dishonest and untrustworthy, so giving that as your main beef with Hillary rings false... It's kind of like saying you dislike a football player because he is "big and muscular". I think the "dishonest and untrustworthy" reason/excuse for opposing Hillary is a pretty good suspect for a "placeholder" for some other less PC or some less clever/thoughtful/fair-sounding motive... it doesn't necessarily have to be gender specifically and certainly not only gender, it could be a combination of things, like say being uncomfortable with someone "marrying into power" or her being in a political-royalty class/family, but again, you can see how those are also indirectly connected to gender.

Another example of a major negative toward Hillary I've heard that seems fine coming from liberals, but rings like "placeholder" coming from conservative/Republican-voters, and conservative/Republican leaning moderates... is the "hawk/warmonger" label... because Republican politicians are generally hawks, so for Republican leaning voters to suddenly claim that as a dealbreaker just comes off as a lot of BS, smokescreening for something else.

So I guess the point is that gender is a factor. I think that if Tulsi Gabbard (or whoever) runs... in order to be successful, she is going to have to be attractive enough of a candidate to overcome the gender factor. Obama did this, and the way he did it, is highlighted by a comment that you keep making... describing him as having/talking "in a normal American accent" and going as far as to qualify that successful candidates would need to fit into a narrow "Obama-like" category. That "Obama-like" characteristic that you describe, is precisely what enabled some people to see past his lack in the other essential categories. Connecting this principle back to female candidates for POTUS... essentially you're implying that a woman (or whatever) can be successful as long as they aren't too stereotypically representative of their group, ostensibly in a way that makes it too difficult for people to forgive their lack of proper categories. Another way of saying it, is that as long as you act enough like you are in the proper categories, the fact that you aren't actually in them, can be overlooked.
 
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There's a bunch here that I don't agree with, but rather than TL;DR and start a whole bunch of tangents all at once, I will say that one point we agree on is that Hillary's gender was a negative factor in this election for multiple reasons. What stands out to me in retrospect is that the most common reason I heard given for people opposing/disliking her was that she wasn't "honest and trustworthy"... but I ask, what politician is honest and trustworthy? We universally view politicians as dishonest and untrustworthy, so giving that as your main beef with Hillary rings false... It's kind of like saying you dislike a football player because he is "big and muscular". I think the "dishonest and untrustworthy" reason/excuse for opposing Hillary is a pretty good suspect for a "placeholder" for some other less PC or some less clever/thoughtful/fair-sounding motive... it doesn't necessarily have to be gender specifically and certainly not only gender, it could be a combination of things, like say being uncomfortable with someone "marrying into power" or her being in a political-royalty class/family, but again, you can see how those are also indirectly connected to gender.
Honesty and trustworthiness aren't common in politicians, but the ability to appear honest and trustworthy is a critical political skill that Hillary is terrible at. I felt a general sense of untrustworthiness about her even when she was saying things that I know to be true, or that completely aligned with positions she's had throughout her career. It's not rational, but very little about human decision-making is. I'll call it "trustiness" after Colbert's "truthiness". Low-trustiness people seem slimy even when they're not, and high-trustiness people seem trustworthy even when they're crooked. Keeping in mind that most people see the DC political establishment as corrupt anyway, running an untrusty person from the core of the Dem establishment was a poor choice.

Trustiness isn't a female-gendered thing, at least for me and probably for most people. To me, female politicians usually come across as trustier than male ones, but Hillary Clinton is a giant exception to that rule. Her trustiness is so low that many people preferred a known con artist who isn't especially trusty himself.

Most people who say they don't trust Clinton are actually honest both to themselves and other people.

Another example of a major negative toward Hillary I've heard that seems fine coming from liberals, but rings like "placeholder" coming from conservative/Republican-voters, and conservative/Republican leaning moderates... is the "hawk/warmonger" label... because Republican politicians are generally hawks, so for Republican leaning voters to suddenly claim that as a dealbreaker just comes off as a lot of BS, smokescreening for something else.
Republicans generally won't want to cross ranks and vote for a Democrat, so in general you're going to hear all sorts of BS excuses for why they dislike any given Democrat.

However, there is actually a substantial number of anti-war Republicans these days. Having local people come back in body bags from a nonsense war actually did change the views of a lot of Republican voters. Anti-war Republicans are generally isolationist, America-first types who might favor a large military for defense but who want to stay out of foreign wars, including defending US allies. Trump played to this group masterfully - notice how much he hammered on first his primary opponents and then Clinton for the Iraq War and Libya. Of course he supported both of them initially, but he's never let the truth stop him. He even went on to suggest not defending our distant allies against attack, which is an even stronger isolationist view. But in order not to appear soft, he also announced his strong support of torture, family-killing, and other war crimes against terrorists. Still, opposing Clinton-McCain style hawkishness is actually a common GOP position.

So I guess the point is that gender is a factor. I think that if Tulsi Gabbard (or whoever) runs... in order to be successful, she is going to have to be attractive enough of a candidate to overcome the gender factor. Obama did this, and the way he did it, is highlighted by a comment that you keep making... describing him as having/talking "in a normal American accent" and going as far as to qualify that successful candidates would need to fit into a narrow "Obama-like" category. That "Obama-like" characteristic that you describe, is precisely what enabled some people to see past his lack in the other essential categories. Connecting this principle back to female candidates for POTUS... essentially you're implying that a woman (or whatever) can be successful as long as they aren't too stereotypically representative of their group, ostensibly in a way that makes it too difficult for people to forgive their lack of proper categories. Another way of saying it, is that as long as you act enough like you are in the proper categories, the fact that you aren't actually in them, can be overlooked.
I completely agree with all of this.

I'm not saying that that race and gender are not huge factors, I'm saying that I don't see it in general election returns. What I think is going on is that would-be politicians who do not fit into the mold of acting and sounding like a "middle-to-upper-class straight white Christian male", except that they happen to be [disadvantaged group X] are filtered out as possible politicians long before they ever become serious contenders for office. People are perfectly fine with voting for someone who agrees with them ideologically and who has all the same traits they do, even if they look different. It's when they deviate from the norms of the dominant culture that the othering begins.

I say the "Obama-like" thing not because I agree that it's the way things should be, but because it's true. As I'm sure you know far better than I do, most white people treat minorities who show all the signs of being part of the dominant culture (accent, dress, teeth, and on and on - it's a long list) similarly to how they treat other white people. Not identically, but pretty close. Then they pat themselves on the back for being so tolerant. Likewise, the most successful female politicians are ones who display traits we associate with men. Whatever else someone may think of them, people rarely fault Thatcher, Merkel, Indira Gandhi, or Golda Meir for being weak. Hillary is actually from this mold too - note that she is accused of hawkishness, a trait usually associated with men. She just has a few critical flaws (bad public speaking, low trustiness, establishment politician in anti-establishment election) that brought her down.

It's a very unequal playing field, but most people are (technically) telling the truth when they say they would vote for women or racial minorities, just not some specific one. In the case of women specifically, while their gender is a barrier to advancing in politics, there are very few people who won't vote for a woman whose political views and overall style match their preferences. Practically none of the people who were chanting "Trump That [lady dog]" wouldn't vote for Ann Coulter in a heartbeat. It wouldn't make them not misogynists or that gender doesn't matter, it just means that even most crypto-fascists will vote for certain women.
 
More on-topic, I will add that attacking Trump on feminist grounds was an utter failure and shouldn't be repeated. I have mentioned that I have anecdotally noticed that husbands in particular seem to be alienated by the feminism angle, and it didn't remotely resonate with women as much as Democrats needed it to. I would abandon that tactic entirely in 2020.

I agree, it's the same reason I disliked when Democrats would go after him over his divorces or infidelities or personal life stuff. It was distracting, and took the mode of political discourse directly into the gutter. And there are so many good, real, politically terrifying things that Donald Trump has said and done that you could actually be talking about instead. It was precisely how he won the Republican nomination. Get politicians sputtering and mumbling about decorum and nobody will be able to see just how much you are fleecing everybody else.

Rather than "grab them by the pussy" they should have been talking more about how he's going to take away birth control and abortion (something which, contrary to spin, the vast majority of this country actually supports). They should have been talking about how, in discussing "inner cities/minorities", Donald Trump spent the entirety of his time during the 2nd debate talking about crime and drugs, rather than, y'know, actual minorities and the problems they face. They should have been talking about the myriad conflicts of interest and how Donald Trump was doing nothing to address any of them. I think the real problem Hillary had, was not that she ignored white working class voters to go after women and minorities; I don't think she really tried very hard to go after minorities either, to be perfectly honest. She went hard in the paint for feminist issues and I will always admire her for that. But I don't think she spoke a whole lot to black or latino voters either. I think, much like with Wisconsin, she just figured that the fact that she pointed out that she was a Democrat and not Donald Trump was going to be enough to get them out to vote.
 
That's what they say. It's likely much lower, but you'll need to check with the divinity about that.
If your point is that a lot of Congress are closet Atheists/agnostics, but they are playing Christians on Television (for the reasons Boots outlines above) I agree with you.
 
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