2020 US Election (Part One)

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The wall doesn't stop visa holders or overstays, its supposed to deter non visa holders from crossing the desert. If the majority of people coming in illegally or seeking asylum bypass ports of entry then its misleading to include people with visas to argue most people use ports of entry. Most of the people entering illegally or seeking asylum dont use ports of entry.

So, one more time slowly to try to save all the people who are trying to explain this to you the frustration.

Ah, screw it.

I know you are fully aware of what you are doing and just relish the frustration you are causing. Anyone who wants to fall for it is on their own. If they really believe you are this stupid but for some reason want to converse with you anyway that's their choice.
 
I mean I literally just posted upthread that this is exactly false. Most of our illegal immigrants come here through visas.

They're not entering the country illegally, they became illegal after overstaying their visas. The wall was never meant to stop people with visas, just the people crossing the desert without visas. But the media has consistently made the argument you're making, most people come in at ports of entry and overstay their visas. So what? The wall isn't meant to stop them, just the people without visas.

So, one more time slowly to try to save all the people who are trying to explain this to you the frustration.

Ah, screw it.

I know you are fully aware of what you are doing and just relish the frustration you are causing. Anyone who wants to fall for it is on their own. If they really believe you are this stupid but for some reason want to converse with you anyway that's their choice.

Straw man, insult, and run away... Well, dont run quite yet. Why did you include visa holders with people who dont have visas? The wall wont deter people with visas, just the people without them. So for 2 years the media has been telling us a wall is unnecessary because most people enter the country at ports of entry when in reality the people entering the country illegally dont have visas and mostly avoid ports of entry.
 
So Why not punish companies and employees ? If no one employs illegals then there are no jobs for illegals wouldn't that solve the problem ? (both border crossing and visa over stayers)
Has no one is the Republican party thought about this ???

Technically, immigration enforcement is the federal government's job. They aren't even allowed to pass it off to state and local law enforcement agencies, although they certainly try. They also aren't allowed to foist it off on employers, though again they certainly try. Big corporate business loves it, since they have a legal department and an HR department mostly just sucking up salaries anyway and keeping up with their "responsibilities" is written into their cost of doing business. Of course, that expense isn't the part that they love. What they love is that it helps eliminate their competition from small businesses. So, yes. the Republican party, good friends of big business that they are, thinks about this all the time.

I ran a sort of co-op business. My typical client/partner worked about sixty hours a week in the summer on regular maintenance, and they routinely picked up a helper to keep repairs that cropped up from pushing that to a level that would make their business really not worth the effort. They grabbed helpers wherever they could find them, and their primary concerns were reliability and trainability. Finding both, or even one, was a challenge and took time...their time, since they were their own "HR department."

They were also their own "legal department." More accurately, I was their legal department. They asked me stuff and I gave them advice. So I checked into the e-verify program. Here's what I learned.

When you sign up, you are signing an agreement that makes you responsible for following the program. That means that if the government changes the requirements of the program you are responsible for following the new rules. Their update package hasn't reached you? Your problem. You haven't shoehorned in the time to review the changes to policy? Your problem. I'm sure they have things more or less settled by now, but at the time they had issued sixteen change notices in the previous twelve months. Remember, they are trying to install a regulatory process that is fundamentally unconstitutional, so changes to try to avoid direct challenges are going to be pretty common.

So, you submit a potential hire into the system. All of the requirements on you are spelled out, and by registering into the program you become contractually obligated to comply. If the result comes back negative there is an obligation on you to inform your potential hire of their rights regarding challenges and appeals. Should they choose to appeal you cannot refuse to hire them based upon the contested result. Now, if you choose not to hire them for some other reason the potential target of their lawsuit is you, so you better make bloody well sure that you have the time to show up in court and lay down a very convincing rap about how even though you went to the trouble of submitting them to verification you weren't really going to hire them because <reasons> and them getting rejected, possibly in error, had nothing to do with you not hiring them.

Okay, yeah, no one with a small business has time to go to court over that. Better to just hire them pending results of their appeal. The package, at that time, said that the government should process their appeal within ten business days. It also required the prospective employer to inform them of their rights under the appeal process, which amounted to "if the government does not respond in ten days, or ten weeks, or ten months, you just have to wait." On my payroll. The language of the agreement was very clear about what the employer would do and what the prospective employee would do, but all references about the governments actions referred as should do. They were under basically no contractual obligation whatsoever.

So, my advice was "Do not sign up. Period." And I followed that up by telling them that if they thought they wanted to they better hire a real legal department and a real HR department and I would cheerfully consider their business relationship with me to be dissolved. No one ever did, oddly enough.
 
That sounds about right, Republican deliberately underfunded the Everify program and its accuracy of checks are pretty bad.
I think that the fines for employing illegals are set very low, like around $150 per illegal so it dosnt pay to even check its cheaper for corporations to simply employ illegals, and then just pay the fine when caught

It not hard to punish the low hanging fruit, e.g business that are raided repeatably and obviously keep employing illegal workers
you know the usual suspects Republican slaughter factories, Republican farmers.
 
First problem is that the wall was suppose to be paid for by mexico, but now that the US taxpayer are footing the bill
If the money were the problem, then more attention would have been drawn to Trump's attempts at making Mexico pay, namely the remittance tax (I thought it was pretty clever that illegal immigrants would be helping build the wall) and the replacement of NAFTA with a more favorable treaty. But most people do not seem to be aware of these, presumably because the media would prefer to have people believe a narrative that he had proposed no method.

To be frank, I really doubt you are thick enough to believe the money is the issue, and you are quite right. It is not. It is just being used as a means of opposing new policy, but no one actually gives a damn about the money. Immigration and border enforcement, as well as the proposed alternative of not enforcing the border which seems to be more popular on this forum, polls high among the political issues set to drive 2020. This makes it an argument of principle, and ideology, and more consequential in politics and culture than the money required to sustain the policies would suggest.

Moreover, if you oppose its new policies, you can hardly blame the administration for the existing policies and their consequences, like the children being separated from parents in detention or illegals undercutting legal wages.

I mean I literally just posted upthread that this is exactly false. Most of our illegal immigrants come here through visas.

There were 34,710 visas issued in total in February 2019.

There were 76,103 apprehensions at the border in February 2019.

Yeah there's an emergency. Your study is probably out-of-date, and I have to wonder about its methods anyway. It claims the illegal immigrant population declined from 11 to 10 million into 2017, but these figures are from the Census survey, so it's not a measure of the number of illegals, but rather a measure of how many illegals were willing to divulge their status. It's about as reliable as survey data on penis size.
 
I wonder, here in (central) Europe, Climate Change has replaced Migration as the #1 topic as visible by a relative rise of green parties and as a backlash to far right parties (and also Trump, as he belongs to that party group). I wonder how long it will take the US Americans to do the same. Because if you keep talking about Migration, it will be biggest one. Don‘t feed the trolls, or if you do, do it so intensively that a fatigue on the topic sets in. Just an observation, as you again are debating a Wall which is so far off content and policy discussion...
 
If the money were the problem, then more attention would have been drawn to Trump's attempts at making Mexico pay, namely the remittance tax (I thought it was pretty clever that illegal immigrants would be helping build the wall) and the replacement of NAFTA with a more favorable treaty. But most people do not seem to be aware of these, presumably because the media would prefer to have people believe a narrative that he had proposed no method.

To be frank, I really doubt you are thick enough to believe the money is the issue, and you are quite right. It is not. It is just being used as a means of opposing new policy, but no one actually gives a damn about the money. Immigration and border enforcement, as well as the proposed alternative of not enforcing the border which seems to be more popular on this forum, polls high among the political issues set to drive 2020. This makes it an argument of principle, and ideology, and more consequential in politics and culture than the money required to sustain the policies would suggest.

Moreover, if you oppose its new policies, you can hardly blame the administration for the existing policies and their consequences, like the children being separated from parents in detention or illegals undercutting legal wages..

Yeah another stable genius idea
Like Mexico isnt going to retaliate in kind by also impossing new taxs on Pro Republicans companies, You transports good and sevices from an Republican state heres some new taxes from the Mexican government.
And Workers cant get a Legal US citizen to do the remittance to avoid Trumps new tax

Has any Democrat ever proposed having no border enforcement ?

I just want to see Republicans farms, food processing industries which rely on some 40% of illegals as their workforce start screaming for illegals to come back
I want to see those aging hollowing out rual communities suddenly losing all the young, hard working families that come and helping revitialise their community leave
Because thats the only way Republicans are going to learn.
 
US exports to Mexico are only about 350 million a day. Close the border, no problem. WINNING!!!
 
I wonder, here in (central) Europe, Climate Change has replaced Migration as the #1 topic as visible by a relative rise of green parties and as a backlash to far right parties (and also Trump, as he belongs to that party group). I wonder how long it will take the US Americans to do the same. Because if you keep talking about Migration, it will be biggest one. Don‘t feed the trolls, or if you do, do it so intensively that a fatigue on the topic sets in. Just an observation, as you again are debating a Wall which is so far off content and policy discussion...

Is this a covert way to deny Poland its central european status?
 
They're not entering the country illegally, they became illegal after overstaying their visas. The wall was never meant to stop people with visas, just the people crossing the desert without visas. But the media has consistently made the argument you're making, most people come in at ports of entry and overstay their visas. So what? The wall isn't meant to stop them, just the people without visas.

But then this means the wall isn't actually solving the problem of illegal immigration. It misses visa overstays, and it misses people who are smuggled through legal ports of entry. It misses people who come in by land through Canada.

It's also easily defeated - by ropes, by ladders, by tunnels, just like the current fences and walls are. Or by obtaining a tourist visa and then overstaying it. Or by obtaining a visa to Canada and coming in through that undefended border.

So, it targets a small portion of total illegal immigration and can be gotten around pretty easily. Why is this a good idea again? To me it looks like an unnecessary expense that doesn't actually solve any problems.
 
I wonder how long it will take the US Americans to do the same.

why do you think that will ever be the case? I just see the US spiralling into insanity and/or civil war, slowly but surely. drifting even further right if anything. green parties have been doing kinda well since the mid 90s in central Europe, green parties in the US however..
 
It's interesting how the framing can be so different.

After an entire campaign of "Mexico will build the wall", "the taxpayer will borrow for the wall" migrated to being an acceptable reinterpretation.

I mean, I know we can reframe promises in the light of political realism, but it's still a surprise. Or, it surprised me. It shouldn't have.
 
Almost as funny as I'll provide the greatest health plan in the world changing to, hmmm, you'll have to re-elect me and give me control of both houses of congress again first. Then I'll tell you about this great plan.
 
But then this means the wall isn't actually solving the problem of illegal immigration.
Ding.Ding.Ding.Ding.Ding. Winner. It's the first step in a process.

Note that you are conceding that illegal immigration is a problem. Problems need solutions, so perhaps I misspoke. Perhaps treating the issue as a problem needing a solution is the first step.

J
 
You guys desperately need a public option. I happen to like the idea of block grants to States. And you can always tie block grants to minimum standards.

So many free market forces are Unleashed once the public option is available. And you lose so much of the damage caused by relying on corporatist culture to provide Healthcare
 
You guys desperately need a public option. I happen to like the idea of block grants to States. And you can always tie block grants to minimum standards.

So many free market forces are Unleashed once the public option is available. And you lose so much of the damage caused by relying on corporatist culture to provide Healthcare
It's funny how the public option started with a public mandate.

It was impressive how much tax money was collected in the form of fines for avoiding the public option. Of course, the public option was a Cadillac plan with artificially high premiums for young people. It made financial sense for many people to avoid it, even with the fines. Still, as an insurer of last resort, a public plan makes sense. Allowing interstate insurance makes even more sense.

J
 
Note that you are conceding that illegal immigration is a problem. Problems need solutions, so perhaps I misspoke. Perhaps treating the issue as a problem needing a solution is the first step.

J

Fun fact: you can accept an interlocutor's premise for the sake of argument to explore the validity of a claim without conceding that the premise is true.
 
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