2020 US Election (Part One)

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You spent the last ten pages here writing stuff against Bernie as well as his supporters. Ultimately this won't matter, given this is just CFC, but surely the trend is the same in the actual US population, so Biden even if pushed over the edge in the nomination is a lame duck.
Other than Biden presenting no hope for those needing change re healthcare or tuition fees, he is also obviously senile. That's not vilifying, it is the evident truth. Run a senile person and see what happens; you think he will get debate protection vs Trump, like DNC does for him now in the new debate vs Bernie?...

The election is close, so you may provide textbytes of Biden supposedly winning, to post then as well :jesus:

Please point out any vilification of Sanders that I have posted.
 
There are three serious candidates Biden, Sanders and
Trump; all in their 70s and showing signs of their age.

Campaigning is a high stress activity and involves
meeting many people and a high risk of getting infected.

I suspect the probability is that at least one of them
will catch Covid 19, have heart attack or stroke etc.

Victory may simply go to the last one standing.
 
Please point out any vilification of Sanders that I have posted.

Here's one. Yet I guess you can still hope Bernie himself may vote for Biden, given you hate his followers even more. But Bernie only has one vote :p

I would say I 'hate' the followers of the mythical St Bernie more than I hate Sanders himself. I do think he is probably the worst choice to nominate because I think he provides the least down ballot push, but that's not a huge deal breaking statement either. But the whole "majority stealing from the minority, democracy is doomed" pathos does leave me cold. If Sanders wants the nomination he needs to get the majority of the votes, same as anyone else. If he doesn't then no one is "stealing" anything from him, because he'll have nothing to steal.
 
Have you seen this Kyriakos? I knew that Biden was losing the thread but I had no idea it was this bad. Maybe @Timsup2nothin should watch it too if he's still in denial about Biden's brains. Shorter than 3 minutes.

 
Have you seen this Kyriakos? I knew that Biden was losing the thread but I had no idea it was this bad. Maybe @Timsup2nothin should watch it too if he's still in denial about Biden's brains. Shorter than 3 minutes.


One cringes even imagining a Biden-Trump debate. Biden is giving 7 minute speeches and then hurled off cause already he goes demented.
Yet, somehow, people don't see how disastrous the strategy to protect Biden up until the election, will get to be. The majority of voters likely still haven't seen how senile Biden is. You think it will make a favorable impression when they do?

:shake:

Biden: "We choose Truth over Facts!" :lol: nice, I hadn't heard that one before.
 
Please point out any vilification of Sanders that I have posted.

Have you seen this Kyriakos? I knew that Biden was losing the thread but I had no idea it was this bad. Maybe @Timsup2nothin should watch it too if he's still in denial about Biden's brains. Shorter than 3 minutes.


One cringes even imagining a Biden-Trump debate. Biden is giving 7 minute speeches and then hurled off and he goes demented.
Yet, somehow, people don't see how disastrous the strategy to protect Biden up until the election, will get to be. The majority of voters likely still haven't seen how senile Biden is. You think it will make a favorable impression when they do?

:shake:

The problem is, the modern successors to Tweed and Crump - the corrupt, unelected, and unaccountable DNC - want very badly to be the ones to effectively decide the nomination, rather than the rank-and-file party members, like in the pre-1972 days.
 
I don't think anyone vilifying Biden is necessarily doing so from within the Democrat Party structure though, at least not on any scale. There have been some potshots between both, at both (I'm avoiding paywall links, so it's very hard to often read into headlines of "criticism" which are milder than the headline sometimes makes out), so here's an example of a general set Biden was tossing out before it was just him and Sanders in the game. You can call it true if you want, but in my opinion de-escalating rhetoric around the term "socialism" would be a better use of my (Biden's) immense money, connections and political clout.

The fact that mainstream Democrats are more than happy to go with this modern kind of Red Scare-esque language is no source of unending frustration (and the same thoughts are starting to happen in the UK, too).

Which leads us to the actual problem underlying this in terms of electability - the US is still stuck, culturally, in some kind of repetitive post-Cold War loop when it comes to leftwing politics and the accuracy of labels used for them. The Overton window is massively to the right compared to (even, still) the UK and other Western nations which has a profound impact on what people can campaign on in a realistic sense. The problem underneath this is that a lot of systems are beginning to fail in our modern world; symptoms of climate change are just one set of examples of this. Moderate, inches gained kind of reform isn't something that's viable in the long term, but people are still playing the US electoral game like it is a long term thing. That's going to lead to increasing dissonance particularly over the next two to three electoral cycles.

Which is why you're going to increasingly find (especially amongst younger political activists) increased anger and disappointment when the Democrats default to the same strategy they thought would work in 2016 (moderate centre-right established Democratic candidate). Political apathy is on the rise, and sticking to what's tried and tested in the hope it averts a repeat of 2016 isn't always going to be seen as the most sensible tactic. When you talk about bad strategy, people who don't think Biden has a good shot are also talking strategy (not necessarily in this thread, I don't know, but certainly from what I've seen). They're talking about it because there's still time for it to change (less time than there was a week ago, but hey). There'll probably be a lot more resignation if / when Biden takes the nomination, and then it'll be on Biden and his team, and his supporters, in the event they lose. What I don't want to see is "well Sanders didn't try hard enough" (like they tried with Clinton in 2016, despite the fact he canvassed for her) or any other centrist / conservative thinkpieces on how the more radical candidate(s) are somehow to blame (in the theoretical event Biden is on the ticket and he loses against Trump). If there is surety about this political strategy, there also needs to be honesty if it fails, because the next time around the Democrats are really going to have to do some thinking in that case.

In effort to reply to main points I have to try to summarize them. I am attempting to do so accurately and not misrepresent you. Any mistakes made are honest ones.

Point one-Biden vilified his opponents when the chips were down after Iowa and it worked, so trying to immunize him against a similar strategy is unfair.

From the article linked the example of "sharpened attacks" on Buttigieg consisted of pointing out that at present his experience consists of being mayor in a moderate sized city. As you touched on, that can be called true, because it just flatly is. It is also not "vilification" in any sense of the word. I'd actually expect that Buttigieg would take it as encouragement to build his resume and try again.

I also don't see where Biden used any "red scare" attacks on Sanders. He was quoted talking about electability and how the GOP would use Sanders self identification as a socialist against not only Sanders but every Democrat down the ballot in November. Again, this can be called true because it just flatly is. Saying "if you hand them a club they will hit you with it" isn't vilifying. It isn't really even saying that the club is in itself a bad thing. It is just acknowledging the existence of the club and the reality that the opposition will use it if they have the chance.

Point two- the US electorate needs to get over the cold war and embrace the reality of socialism.

Probably so, but acknowledging the need does not justify a pretense that it has happened. The socialism "scare word" has and still does work in USian politics. It isn't "red scare" because clearly we have collectively relegated Russia into 'vanquished enemy' status and don't really worry all that much about 'a member of the US communist party is just a spy for the USSR.' What it is though is a widespread identification of socialist economic theory as 'failed.' Correctly or incorrectly, USians in the electorate predominantly attach 'socialism' as 'communism' as USSR and credit that economic theory as how the USSR lost the cold war. They are also constantly grasping onto every anecdote of a European country nationalizing anything and experiencing a bad consequence, and every anecdote where such nationalization "had to be given up as a failure." The only solution I see here is widespread education in economics applied over generations, not any sort of "embrace the self declared socialist and see if he can make a magical turnaround happen."

Point three- the pending revolt of disappointed youth.

It may very well seem like this is "right around the corner" and that these youth and their movement are so singularly put out and their issues so singularly critical that action to appease them has to be taken immediately before the whole place goes up in flames. I absolutely agreed with every word of that idea, and every argument presented in support of that idea. I hunkered down ready to eagerly support the pending revolution when it inevitably happened as a result of the pending irrefutable evidence that the electoral system was totally broken.

But somehow 1973 came and went and there was no youth revolution to be found. The person I heard those arguments from dropped out of the electorate in disgust, but showed less enthusiasm for an actual bloody revolution than I had. He reentered the electorate in the 90s as a Republican.

Conclusion...the guy on the street corner with the sandwich boards saying "the end is near" might be right. When the end does come there will undoubtedly have been one of those guys and we need to credit him for it. But there definitely will be one of those guys at the time because there always is, and all the rest of them will still have been wrong.
 
One cringes even imagining a Biden-Trump debate. Biden is giving 7 minute speeches and then hurled off cause already he goes demented.
Yet, somehow, people don't see how disastrous the strategy to protect Biden up until the election, will get to be. The majority of voters likely still haven't seen how senile Biden is. You think it will make a favorable impression when they do?

:shake:

Biden: "We choose Truth over Facts!" :lol: nice, I hadn't heard that one before.

I heard a conspiracy theory that this is all a plan to get Hillary in as president. The plan being to make sure Biden gets the nomination, then have him name Hillary as his VP. Then if he wins, they will declare him mentally incompetent so Hillary can take office. This conspiracy theory also claims Biden isn't actually suffering dementia, but just pretending to in order to make the mentally incompetent claims more believable.
 
I heard a conspiracy theory that this is all a plan to get Hillary in as president. The plan being to make sure Biden gets the nomination, then have him name Hillary as his VP. Then if he wins, they will declare him mentally incompetent so Hillary can take office. This conspiracy theory also claims Biden isn't actually suffering dementia, but just pretending to in order to make the mentally incompetent claims more believable.

Come on. That is just not real.
 
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Blue no matter who, right guys?
 
Here's one. Yet I guess you can still hope Bernie himself may vote for Biden, given you hate his followers even more. But Bernie only has one vote :p

LOL...sure man..."bad for down ballot candidates" and "suffering obvious brain rot" are clearly both really good similar examples of vilification.

Your post is flatly idiotic.
Have you seen this Kyriakos? I knew that Biden was losing the thread but I had no idea it was this bad. Maybe @Timsup2nothin should watch it too if he's still in denial about Biden's brains. Shorter than 3 minutes.

Here's a good example of what I meant about doing Trump's work for him. When Fox ran that clip it was presented to the Fox bots as a live interview...which it was the first time. But as cable news does the interview was rerun repeatedly in an edited for time and to be commented on by our panel version. As Fox always does it was edited as unfairly as possible. This shouldn't have presented a problem, since the people who watch Fox aren't really available to a Democratic candidate anyway so it doesn't matter what they are shown and the actual potential voters don't watch Fox for that very reason.

Then Trump and the other "reliable sources" started tweeting out the clip or using it as a 'newsworthy event in itself meriting coverage.' Again, so what? People who get their news from Breitbart, or take something no matter how idiotic as "well the president put it out and he always tells the truth" are not available, and people who are available don't do that.

But here we have a seriously leftist, usually well informed person handing it off to a dingbat who is already well known for "I'll repost anything that supports my views whether it has any credibility or not." Cardgame, please ask yourself; to what end?
 
So you have qualms with one clip, but that video showcased like two dozen... I'm certainly willing to concede that more than one of them was weak stuff but on the whole?

As to what end... why, making people realize Biden isn't viable, of course. When the primary ends and Biden is the nom I'll stop posting attacks on him until he inevitably loses, then I'll do it again for the laughs at what all of us predicted.
 
Information tends to flow freely, Tim, m8. But sure, keep hoping no one will see Biden's dementia, not even in the debates with Trump.
Speaking of "flatly idiotic", one might say :mischief:

So you have qualms with one clip, but that video showcased like two dozen... I'm certainly willing to concede that more than one of them was weak stuff but on the whole?

As to what end... why, making people realize Biden isn't viable, of course. When the primary ends and Biden is the nom I'll stop posting attacks on him until he inevitably loses, then I'll do it again for the laughs at what all of us predicted.

Sssss. He only sees what he wants to see.
 
As to what end... why, making people realize Biden isn't viable, of course. When the primary ends and Biden is the nom I'll stop posting attacks on him until he inevitably loses, then I'll do it again for the laughs at what all of us predicted.

So the objective is to lay down the basis for being proven right about the "inevitable loss." How do you anticipate benefiting from that, beyond the lulz?
 
Bidens not ideal by a long shot.

The Democrats pick a centrist is a good idea. Unfortunately they don't have an ideal candidate.

All the evidence we have supports that basic idea. 2018 midterms, where the election needs to be won, Biden owning Sanders.

The basic strategy is good, the downside is Biden isn't the best.
 
In effort to reply to main points I have to try to summarize them. I am attempting to do so accurately and not misrepresent you. Any mistakes made are honest ones.

Point one-Biden vilified his opponents when the chips were down after Iowa and it worked, so trying to immunize him against a similar strategy is unfair.

From the article linked the example of "sharpened attacks" on Buttigieg consisted of pointing out that at present his experience consists of being mayor in a moderate sized city. As you touched on, that can be called true, because it just flatly is. It is also not "vilification" in any sense of the word. I'd actually expect that Buttigieg would take it as encouragement to build his resume and try again.

I also don't see where Biden used any "red scare" attacks on Sanders. He was quoted talking about electability and how the GOP would use Sanders self identification as a socialist against not only Sanders but every Democrat down the ballot in November. Again, this can be called true because it just flatly is. Saying "if you hand them a club they will hit you with it" isn't vilifying. It isn't really even saying that the club is in itself a bad thing. It is just acknowledging the existence of the club and the reality that the opposition will use it if they have the chance.

Point two- the US electorate needs to get over the cold war and embrace the reality of socialism.

Probably so, but acknowledging the need does not justify a pretense that it has happened. The socialism "scare word" has and still does work in USian politics. It isn't "red scare" because clearly we have collectively relegated Russia into 'vanquished enemy' status and don't really worry all that much about 'a member of the US communist party is just a spy for the USSR.' What it is though is a widespread identification of socialist economic theory as 'failed.' Correctly or incorrectly, USians in the electorate predominantly attach 'socialism' as 'communism' as USSR and credit that economic theory as how the USSR lost the cold war. They are also constantly grasping onto every anecdote of a European country nationalizing anything and experiencing a bad consequence, and every anecdote where such nationalization "had to be given up as a failure." The only solution I see here is widespread education in economics applied over generations, not any sort of "embrace the self declared socialist and see if he can make a magical turnaround happen."

Point three- the pending revolt of disappointed youth.

It may very well seem like this is "right around the corner" and that these youth and their movement are so singularly put out and their issues so singularly critical that action to appease them has to be taken immediately before the whole place goes up in flames. I absolutely agreed with every word of that idea, and every argument presented in support of that idea. I hunkered down ready to eagerly support the pending revolution when it inevitably happened as a result of the pending irrefutable evidence that the electoral system was totally broken.

But somehow 1973 came and went and there was no youth revolution to be found. The person I heard those arguments from dropped out of the electorate in disgust, but showed less enthusiasm for an actual bloody revolution than I had. He reentered the electorate in the 90s as a Republican.

Conclusion...the guy on the street corner with the sandwich boards saying "the end is near" might be right. When the end does come there will undoubtedly have been one of those guys and we need to credit him for it. But there definitely will be one of those guys at the time because there always is, and all the rest of them will still have been wrong.
The thing about insults, or digs, or any kind of political grandstanding that involves taking shots at competitors or opponents, is of course they can also be factual. But them being factual doesn't negate them being used as vilification (which was the entire point, given the timings of the speech, in addition to it being a break from character in the primaries so far).

Insofar as using a "red scare" attack, anything that involves presenting socialism in a negative light is that. It's exactly that. The GOP will use anything against any Democratic candidate - when people are criticising Biden's coherency? It's because the GOP will use that. Maybe the argument should be why offering up a socialist candidate as a label is better or worse than offering up someone who's coming across worse in a number of videos (in fairness, one of which I've seen edited, but a whole lot more I've seen haven't been) in terms of mental acumen and focus. Physical health is a big difference from mental health (I mean, in an ideal world, they'd all be taken as parts of a whole, but that's Another Derail and I don't want to inflict that on the thread. For better or worse, they're seen as disparate states and often attacked separately, or used in separate attacks).

"socialism ~= communism" is absolutely the problem here, as well as mainstream Democrats (not just Biden) playing up its weaknesses in general. We have that here too in the UK, when by comparison our centre-left candidate (who's more left-oriented than Sanders) barely qualifies as centre-left in a lot of European countries. For you, this means that Biden is a better chance, and he might well be for this election. But that association needs to be broken - that's one of my central political beliefs in general. We have to remove the overtly conservative stigma around socialism as a concept and a label, and sure, like you said, that's going to take time. The problem here is twofold. Firstly, we're arguably running out of time. Secondly, increasing amounts of younger generations are becoming more educated about it, and "waiting for everyone too firmly rooted in bias to die off" isn't really a feasible proposition. Moreso when you consider the fact that young people raised in conservative (or outright right-wing) families will also be growing up with bias inherited from their parents. It's not as simple as waiting for it to die out, and any educational reform in the States is going to come up against the entire problem that is the label in the first place. The dice are stacked against socialism, in a time when the failings of capitalism even in obvious examples like the poverty line, or the hourly wage rate, are becoming increasingly more obvious. Something needs to change. Maybe it isn't the United States of Socialist America, but hey. We can't keep on as we are.

It's very hard to accept a multi-generational educational plan when education is one of the hardest things to actually enact positive change for. Something else needs to be done, arguably, which is why you see people getting into politics on these more leftist platforms (and again: only really very mildly leftist given the American skew on such labels).

r.e. the revolt of the youth. I didn't specify revolt. Any number of things could happen, from the gradual failings of real-life systems to an accelerated rate of pandemic events (not necessarily viral / bacterial, but localised / regional economic collapse, increasing precariousness for small and middle business chains, etc). It's a nebulous future, but the key thing I keep seeing is waiting for it to happen is really becoming an increasingly difficult thing to stomach. I'm pretty young, but I'm not young anymore. I'm 30; I've had children. To me thinking 10 or 20 years in the future is natural, and having lived through what I have, and seeing how these things are getting worse? "wait and see" is advice I find increasingly difficult to heed. I'm increasingly sympathetic to the need for radical change; perhaps you're not. Perhaps you are, but have accepted a longer timeline. I don't want to assume.

1973 is a long time ago now. A lot of things have changed, a lot of previously-considered fact has been superceded. I really urge you to listen to the guy on the street corner, because even if every time so far the theoretical hasn't happened, it only needs to happen once. That's the problem with these kinds of theoretical situations, and the rationale about considering them dismissable (to whatever mild extent you are). It's not a matter of deciding who was right after the fact. It's dealing with the reality we find ourselves in. I don't care who's right. I don't even want to be right. I just want to see everything done by the people who have the power to do so to stop it. I'm not seeing that, on either side of the Atlantic, on any of the subjects I care about (which is, in general: minority rights, fossil fuels, climate change and labour law).
 
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