2020 US Election (Part One)

[hobbsyoyo]

One has to assume that if Trump is that destructive for a majority of people, he will easily lose the election.

Not really thanks to the way that our presidential election system works. A minority of the country can and have elected the president multiple times in the recent past.

 

[El_Machinae]

Bernie would get destroyed by Trump in a debate. Trump is not expected to say any reasonable things. We've seen 'the Chewbacca' in debates before. Bernie doesn't have sufficient malice and chill to burn Trump in real time. That's the only technique viable against Trump, real-time burns and counter-sarcasm.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I don't think Warren would have the same problem.

 

[Tristan_C]

Yes and I'm also making the point that even the bad coverage is part of the problem. Major reporting has devolved into vapid click-baiting buzzfeed style journalism that does nothing but further entrench the body politic into fighting positions. I have read a few articles like the ones mentioned in that giant post and a shocking number of them are pure outrage pieces completely devoid of any substance. Seriously, any number of those articles will be three-paragraph hit pieces that can be summed up:
Trump is bad, really bad, and you won't guess what he's going to do next! And then the article just stops without actually saying anything substantive about what he did or what he might do next.

The problem with all this is that even though it's good journalists have started calling his racism for what it is, the signal to noise ratio has fallen through the floor such that major news falls through the cracks. Hardly anyone can filter through all the attention-grabbing garbage to get a picture of what's really happening in the government.

And while it may seem like the media attacks hurt Trump, it also helps him as his entire base loves nothing more than to be able to claim the media is 'unfairly' dogpiling their champion while a portion of his base just outright loves the racism.

I thought your point was, and I quote, that "the media is complicit in Trump's lying and racism for not calling it what it is but PBS and NPR have really stepped up lately." But the media has never been complicit with Trump in any way on anything since he came down the escalator. His coverage has been solidly negative since the beginning. The premise of this point is wrong.

I think I can see how you could detest the media's wall of hate and their methods of directing their hate, because this noisy, incoherent morass of media hate is indeed pretty easy for Trump and his supporters to leverage. Perhaps I should assure you that hating the US media in turn, as conservatives do, is something much bigger than Trump. It has been going on for many years. The "racist tweets" keyphrase results I posted support the idea that the US media is hardly media at all, at this point; they are just people with a suspiciously-uniform political opinion who deceptively brand themselves as journalists and reporters. There are very few journalists in the industry. I hate this kind of deception.

 

[Kyriakos]

Bernie would get destroyed by Trump in a debate. Trump is not expected to say any reasonable things. We've seen 'the Chewbacca' in debates before. Bernie doesn't have sufficient malice and chill to burn Trump in real time. That's the only technique viable against Trump, real-time burns and counter-sarcasm.

On the contrary, I think Bernie is the only one who is familiar with hostile debates. Due to the cool establishment media keeping him in fighting spirit

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The premise of this point is wrong.

I mean I wrote a lot but if you're going to boil it down to one quote, strip it out of context and read in whatever you are going to read into it, then that will happen.

 

[Socrates99]

Bernie would get destroyed by Trump in a debate. Trump is not expected to say any reasonable things. We've seen 'the Chewbacca' in debates before. Bernie doesn't have sufficient malice and chill to burn Trump in real time. That's the only technique viable against Trump, real-time burns and counter-sarcasm.

Watch more interviews with Bernie done by the MSM. Trump would mostly revert to random insults and GoP talking points that would undermine his faux populism he used to beat Hillary. Bernie frequently attacks Trump on policy and Trump has no way to respond to that.

These candidates running on substantial policy rather than just identity or being "not Trump" are the ones who can actually slaughter Trump in debates. The ones running on "not Trump" would be decimated.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

These candidates running on substantial policy rather than just identity or being "not Trump" are the ones who can actually slaughter Trump in debates.

I don't think it's a given. Hillary ran on serious policy. It was milquetoast and uninspired but she was always detail-oriented and serious about her proposals. Just being smart and serious is not enough. There were so many moments in the debates where Trump set her up for slam dunks if she had just had the wherewithal to follow up on his missteps and she just flubbed over and over and wavered and didn't press forward with attacks she could have easily landed.

I'll be honest that I haven't seen enough Bernie debates to really comment on how effective he'd be specifically against Trump in the debates but I think it could go either way.

 

[Imaus]

But what is needed is someone who is cool in a debate, in every meaning of the word. They must deflect Trump's attacks without looking like a kid on the schoolyard. They need not to barb him back, but just withstand him. But on top of that, they need to reach out to the audience's pathos, ethos, and logos. Nearly everyone so far but Biden and maybe Tulsi and Gabbard win in Ethos, Logos is a mainstay that needs to be reinforced but-oh-so-slightly as to not make the Dems seem like robots, and pathos...Pathos is the tricky one. But it can be done, by going around and ignoring Trump and appealing to the greater picture and individual. Good composure, good reach-ability, good sustenance.

 

[innonimatu]

You have elections in 2020. One has to assume that if Trump is that destructive for a majority of people, he will easily lose the election.
I certainly would want to see a Trump vs Bernie election debate. It will be fun and Bernie will destroy him.

He'll win. Even against Bernie. The time to change paths was then, the past election, now is too late. At least until after the next big crisis.

I actually respected Trump as a skilled politician when people were busy mocking his presidential bid. But even I don't attribute the current situation to him, he's not that skilled. He's riding a wave that others made, and those others very much include both american parties. This is what you get when you betray your voters often enough. And make no mistake, the guy is not senile yet, even if he his less sharp than he once was. Barring accidents (no one lives forever) he can last for many years more in the arena. You should probably be more concerned about what would come after Trump if he died tomorrow. Because the situation wouldn't change. The US politics turned nasty and to change them back would require far more effort than the leaderships of the parties want to put into it: most are fat cats happily sitting on top of the pyramid and doing their act.

If Sanders somehow, miraculously, were allowed to run this time as the candidate for the democrats, quite a few, enough, would vote against him because they are poor but deep down they want to believe the "economic miracle of capitalism" and right now it looks like "the economy is good". They're still getting clobbered but hey, less so and that is enough for them to hope... Plus some fewer others who play the "virtuous democrat" and are filthy rich would vote for anyone against Sanders.
Back then Sanders would have won. Now and provided the credit game doesn't get cut before the election, not even he can.

 

[Naskra]

He'll win. Even against Bernie.

I think Trump would win against Bernie (even crazier old man), but this is an unlikely matchup. Trump has lost his biggest asset - Hillary, and garnered a huge liability - Trump Fatigue. So we shall see.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Imagine comparing a man who thinks climate change is a hoax created by china to a man who thinks that medicare for all is more sustainable than people going without it.

 

[rah]

Imagine him going down in flames.

 

[Socrates99]

I don't think it's a given. Hillary ran on serious policy. It was milquetoast and uninspired but she was always detail-oriented and serious about her proposals. Just being smart and serious is not enough. There were so many moments in the debates where Trump set her up for slam dunks if she had just had the wherewithal to follow up on his missteps and she just flubbed over and over and wavered and didn't press forward with attacks she could have easily landed.

I'll be honest that I haven't seen enough Bernie debates to really comment on how effective he'd be specifically against Trump in the debates but I think it could go either way.

Hillary's policies were not populist. She ignored where we are as a country and Trump tapped into the resentment that created. He wasn't genuine but even the half measures Bernie's campaign pushed Clinton to support weren't genuine either. Clinton's record of corruption and dishonesty left no one with any real belief she'd even push for the half measures she had proposed.

The same cant be said about Bernie. Like him or not, he's honest and consistent. He's also been able to steamroll hacky attacks made by pundits much smarter than Trump. Trump will call him crazy or whatever, mumble junk about Venezuela and generally use numbers to display a great economy that he himself called phony in 2016

Bernie's team is sharp, he's not surrounded by yes men like Trump is. They'll have him prepped for Trump's attacks, you already see it in his news appearances. This is something Clinton's team couldn't do when they didn't take Trump seriously and didnt have 3 years of the Trump admin. Back then Trump was all over the place, he didnt have a political record to pin on him.

 

[rah]

SOCIALISM scare techniques for the win. No matter how sharp the socialist is. Can't win flyover country with socialism.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

SOCIALISM scare techniques for the win. No matter how sharp the socialist is. Can't win flyover country with socialism.

I liked this comment because it is true. I actually hate the fact that it is true, but there was no way to indicate that with a single click.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I think that there is only so much gas in that tank. The SOCIALISM MENACE angle is so overplayed right now it's losing meaning and while I do suspect you guys are right, I also think there's a good chance they're de-demonizing socialism by overreach. And if the rhetoric turns to violence as it could very well do, a martyred Omar or AOC will further de-demonize their ideas.

 

[Naskra]

Bernie's team is sharp

And Hillary's team was the sharpest ever assembled in the history of Man. Sharpness is over-rated, hence Trump.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think that there is only so much gas in that tank. The SOCIALISM MENACE angle is so overplayed right now it's losing meaning and while I do suspect you guys are right, I also think there's a good chance they're de-demonizing socialism by overreach. And if the rhetoric turns to violence as it could very well do, a martyred Omar or AOC will further de-demonize their ideas.

Hmmm. I almost wonder if in a very short time you've been in California too long. The SOCIALISM MENACE doesn't have much truck here, but it never really did. Do you really think that back home in Missouri it is being "de-demonized through overreach"?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Hmmm. I almost wonder if in a very short time you've been in California too long. The SOCIALISM MENACE doesn't have much truck here, but it never really did. Do you really think that back home in Missouri it is being "de-demonized through overreach"?

Yeah man. During the Obamacare debate there was a lot of people I worked with at restaurants and other unskilled labor jobs that were really turned off by the heavy-handed messaging of the right and a few that began to tentatively embrace socialism in name (and situationally) if not in reality. Same when it came to the way Missouri disgracefully repealed minimum wage increases because 'socialism'. The harder and harder the right pushes, the more they are going to get pushback from people that normally wouldn't pay attention.

I'm not predicting anything with certainty, just noting that the over the top rhetoric and extreme tactics of the right against 'socialism' can have an opposite effect as to what's intended. Hell, the way they obsess over AOC and Bernie on Fox has provided a lot of people with at least an idea of what socialism is that they wouldn't have otherwise gotten.