2020 US Election (Part One)

[Patine]

Perhaps the implication that Trump and the GOP are just the same as the Democratic party will finally fall on deaf ears after being revealed as so demonstrably ridiculous.

I don't know. The worst and most completely criminal aspects of American Government policy in general, both domestically and internationally, are agreed upon and perpetuated by the bulk of both major parties and are not Presidential election issues, except for those of those outlying candidates who are Third Party or Independent, or on the outer orbits, ideologically, of Party Primaries (like Ron Paul, Denis Kucinich, Mike Gravel, and Bernie Sanders). Besides, your retort doesn't answer why denying American voters true choice in candidates and leaders through corrupt and rigged elections is acceptable.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Man, if Biden loses it will be Biden's fault and no one else's.

I dunno, I think we can safely blame the voting populace at large more than any one candidate.

lexicus, you talk of losing, I’m talking about winning.
With a victory everyone can take credit.

 

[Commodore]

I dunno, I think we can safely blame the voting populace at large more than any one candidate.

I'm with Lexicus on this though. Say what you want about voters, but at the end of the day it's up to the candidates themselves to convince people to vote for them. If a candidate is really bad at selling themselves to the people, then their loss is their fault, not the voters' fault.

 

[Patine]

Man, if Biden loses it will be Biden's fault and no one else's.

I dunno, I think we can safely blame the voting populace at large more than any one candidate.

lexicus, you talk of losing, I’m talking about winning.
With a victory everyone can take credit.

I'm with Lexicus on this though. Say what you want about voters, but at the end of the day it's up to the candidates themselves to convince people to vote for them. If a candidate is really bad at selling themselves to the people, then their loss is their fault, not the voters' fault.

If American voters had a real, contested, free-and-fair, politically healthy electoral system with real choice in candidates, blame games wouldn't be necessary here.

 

[Lexicus]

I dunno, I think we can safely blame the voting populace at large more than any one candidate.

Notice that "blame the voters" is something I'm really trying hard not to do now that Bernie appears to be losing the primary. It's Bernie's fault he's losing.

lexicus, you talk of losing, I’m talking about winning.

Because I see you setting up to blame the Bernie Bros if/when Biden loses in November.

 

[cardgame]

Bernie could absolutely be doing a better job, but the voters are going for a man with no policies? How do you reach someone who has ostriched themselves.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't know. The worst and most completely criminal aspects of American Government policy in general, both domestically and internationally, are agreed upon and perpetuated by the bulk of both major parties and are not Presidential election issues, except for those of those outlying candidates who are Third Party or Independent, or on the outer orbits, ideologically, of Party Primaries (like Ron Paul, Denis Kucinich, Mike Gravel, and Bernie Sanders). Besides, your retort doesn't answer why denying American voters true choice in candidates and leaders through corrupt and rigged elections is acceptable.

There's a really cynical definition of leadership: the art of reading the crowd, such that wherever they go you get there ahead of them. Instead of "both parties this, and both parties that," I suggest you look at why they share that common ground.

Bernie could absolutely be doing a better job, but the voters are going for a man with no policies? How do you reach someone who has ostriched themselves.

Well, stop telling yourself that the hyperbole that isn't reaching them is fact and see what happens might be a start.

 

[Patine]

There's a really cynical definition of leadership: the art of reading the crowd, such that wherever they go you get there ahead of them. Instead of "both parties this, and both parties that," I suggest you look at why they share that common ground.

Because sociopaths and plutocrats have undue power over both...

 

[Estebonrober]

Well, stop telling yourself that the hyperbole that isn't reaching them is fact and see what happens might be a start.

What hyperbole again? I find it most distressing that the voters continually turn out for platitudes and sweet nothings or raving angry mad screeds and never thought out logical policy making. Its bloody maddening.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What hyperbole again? I find it most distressing that the voters continually turn out for platitudes and sweet nothings or raving angry mad screeds and never thought out logical policy making. Its bloody maddening.

90% of "Sanders' personal copyrighted never before seen and proposed only by him" policies are shared throughout the Democratic party. They might be seen more as "that would sure be great if it were even in the realm of possibility" rather than "Bernie and his magic will make it happen if we could only get him elected" but the policies are still there.

The whole "no one ever noticed racial injustice until I reached adulthood last year," "no one ever worried about money influencing politics before Bernie pointed it out," "no one ever noticed that the environment is deteriorating until we did just now," etc etc etc is really tiresome.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't know. The worst and most completely criminal aspects of American Government policy in general, both domestically and internationally, are agreed upon and perpetuated by the bulk of both major parties and are not Presidential election issues, except for those of those outlying candidates who are Third Party or Independent, or on the outer orbits, ideologically, of Party Primaries (like Ron Paul, Denis Kucinich, Mike Gravel, and Bernie Sanders). Besides, your retort doesn't answer why denying American voters true choice in candidates and leaders through corrupt and rigged elections is acceptable.

My if Bernie was over here he would still be screwed.

At best he would be the leader of minor party in coalition with the main left of centre party. Here's what happens

1. He can support the main left of centre party. He will get some minor concessions. At best he can drag them to the left a bit further on one or two issues they agree on.

2. He can refuse to support them either throwing the election to the right or forcing a new election.

3. He can sit out of government, the main left wing party coalitions with a centrist party. Achieves nothing, government is a bit less left of center.

If a minor party throws their weight around the media buried them (tail wagging the dog) and if it's bad enough it brings down the government. Voters punish both parties and they get thrown out.

So even in a more liberal electorate with proportional representation Bernie's still screwed.

He can't hijack the existing parties and he doesn't have a mandate to boss the major parties around. If all the minor parties ganged up you could also get a grand coalition where the two main parties coalition.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Because sociopaths and plutocrats have undue power over both...

Comforting to believe, but unlikely to be the actual reason. Try again.

 

[Estebonrober]

90% of "Sanders' personal copyrighted never before seen and proposed only by him" policies are shared throughout the Democratic party. They might be seen more as "that would sure be great if it were even in the realm of possibility" rather than "Bernie and his magic will make it happen if we could only get him elected" but the policies are still there.

The whole "no one ever noticed racial injustice until I reached adulthood last year," "no one ever worried about money influencing politics before Bernie pointed it out," "no one ever noticed that the environment is deteriorating until we did just now," etc etc etc is really tiresome.

Look Idc about this story you've told yourself regarding these policies. No DNC member as far as I can tell are seriously talking about the two big issues of our time. Medicare for all or GND. They are completely dismissive and disrespectful of anyone seriously proposing real solutions to the problems. I understand Bernie being president will not magically make those things happen but they suddenly improve the view of people like you who currently view them as impossibilities. We have to change the story of "what can be" and make that a helluva lot more inclusive and expansive then what it has meant for the last 40 years.

I'll vote for Biden to maybe save the country knowing full well I'm going to be deeply disappointed in his presidency. He better not fcuk up the SCOTUS seats. It won't matter, Trump is going to make him out to be the sewer of political bargains he is and he will lose.

 

[Zardnaar]

Look Idc about this story you've told yourself regarding these policies. No DNC member as far as I can tell are seriously talking about the two big issues of our time. Medicare for all or GND. They are completely dismissive and disrespectful of anyone seriously proposing real solutions to the problems. I understand Bernie being president will not magically make those things happen but they suddenly improve the view of people like you who currently view them as impossibilities. We have to change the story of "what can be" and make that a helluva lot more inclusive and expansive then what it has meant for the last 40 years.

I'll vote for Biden to maybe save the country knowing full well I'm going to be deeply disappointed in his presidency. He better not fcuk up the SCOTUS seats. It won't matter, Trump is going to make him out to be the sewer of political bargains he is and he will lose.

To change the rules though you need to win power.

US electorate is probably slightly left of center by their standards, right of centre by anyone else.

You need to get more influence over the Democrats and wait 8-12 years.

8-12 years is when Florida/Texas/Ohio might flip blue. They also gave to flip reliably.

To get proportional representation you'll have to convince both parties it's in their best interests. Which won't happen anytime soon. If the Dems can win most elections they won't want to change.

And Bernie's still screwed in proportional system.

 

[Patine]

Comforting to believe, but unlikely to be the actual reason. Try again.

There's no possible reason that would not somehow horribly offend my moral centre or sense of justice, frankly. The things I am speaking of cannot be done with any ethical higher ground, or by anyone but high criminals - even if opposing or stopping other high criminals are the motive. It just means instead of being "the cops," they're "a rival criminal cartel."

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Look Idc about this story you've told yourself regarding these policies. No DNC member as far as I can tell are seriously talking about the two big issues of our time. Medicare for all or GND. They are completely dismissive and disrespectful of anyone seriously proposing real solutions to the problems. I understand Bernie being president will not magically make those things happen but they suddenly improve the view of people like you who currently view them as impossibilities. We have to change the story of "what can be" and make that a helluva lot more inclusive and expansive then what it has meant for the last 40 years.

I'll vote for Biden to maybe save the country knowing full well I'm going to be deeply disappointed in his presidency. He better not fcuk up the SCOTUS seats. It won't matter, Trump is going to make him out to be the sewer of political bargains he is and he will lose.

Let's take a look at this "changing what can be." How exactly is electing Sanders supposed to do that, other than through some Sanders magic wand?

DNC members would be more than happy to talk about Medicare for all...if you, Sanders, anybody had the slightest idea how to go about making it happen. So...other than "elect Sanders and see the magic" WTH do you got? I'm listening. Take your shot.

IF the Democrats get control of the senate it is going to be razor thin. So unless your great plan involves "first, shoot all the Republicans" it is DEAD. DOA. Finished.

Now, somewhere in this thread I suggested, since I too would like to see Medicare for all, that the only way I see to get there is squeeze in a public option access to medicare, then hold power long enough for it to drive out the private sector competitors without the GOP getting back in and fornicating all over it. Undoubtedly that doesn't sound magical enough or provide the instant gratification that Sanders promises, but it does have the benefit of being at least marginally realistic.

And just in case...no, I didn't think that up on my own, that is bog standard policy throughout the Democratic party.

There's no possible reason that would not somehow horribly offend my moral centre or sense of justice, frankly. The things I am speaking of cannot be done with any ethical higher ground, or by anyone but high criminals - even if opposing or stopping other high criminals are the motive. It just means instead of being "the cops," they're "a rival criminal cartel."

You are getting warmer. Put aside your delicate sensibilities consider the evidence.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I think supporters of M4A and GND by and large either

a) Do not give enough credit to the revolutionary aspects of their proposals
b) Underestimate the stiff resistance they would face

I'm all for dragging the overton window to the left kicking and screaming but I think at the end of the day, any movement that takes an all or nothing (or worse - all or I HATE YOUR BRAIN-ROTTING GUTS) is not on solid footing.

 

[Patine]

You are getting warmer. Put aside your delicate sensibilities consider the evidence.

I'm afraid I do not support the axioms of the '80's action movies each starred one of the actors now in the "Expendables" movies in a younger day. If one becomes just as bad, rotten, murderous, unaccountable, and secretive as those they oppose, then they are just as bad, and deserve (even if they don't get it) similar fates. George W. Bush is just as bad, just as much of a criminal of the worst sort, and just as deserving of extreme justice, as Osama bin Laden.

 

[Kyriakos]

the way Biden wins in November is if all the Bernie supporters vote for him.

Why do you think they will not?

I can only think of:

-policy differences (Biden isn't for free healthcare for all, nor tuition fees)
-underwhelming as a leaderhead (self-evident; he is no speaker, nor does he represent something new or exiting)
-corruption issues (his son and the Ukraine saga - I am sure it will help sway republicans though)
-frailty (dementia or similar, he sounds horrible)

Other than that, though, yes, I suppose Berniebros have no issue voting for him. I mean it's not like they are branded as the enemy - Berniebro is just a friendly characterization.

Sadly November is very far away. Personally I think Biden will be slaughtered. Which is bad, cause Trump had to go.

By the way, there is a logical way to get the support needed by Bernie's supporters. It is the "unusual" idea of having the other side be part of the ticket. Off course this is the DNC, they won't do it, but they definitely expect the votes of Bern's supporters because reasons.

 

[Sommerswerd]

People viewed him having sex with an intern as messed up/abnormal that Gore got penalized a bit for as his VP. There's an argument to be made someone else would have won in 2000 that wasn't tied to it. Obviously none of this is to the extent of Trump, but there was definitely a push for restoring norms/character/etc. after him.

In some ways it was the opposite... Gore's campaign, led by the hack and fraud Donna Brazile, let themselves be convinced to distance themselves from their greatest asset, Clinton, due to the Lewinsky scandal. The reality is that Clinton was still very popular with Democrats, and the American public in general didn't care enough about Lewinsky to vote against Gore over it, but Gore's stupid campaign let themselves get psyched out so much about it that they sat their star player (Clinton) on the bench when they should have been bear-hugging him and using him as much as possible.