2020 US Election (Part One)

[Zardnaar]

I've developed a massive pet peeve in recent years. People from countries with UHC buying into the notion that Bernie's plans are crazy. Not naming names but...WTH?

The desire for UHC isn't crazy. It's that plus green new deal plus whatever else.

It's also how you're going to make it happen.

Sanders universal healthcare assumes a lot and it's been priced at 35 trillion over 10 years. That's roughly double the federal budget.

That's just one policy and I don't see tax rises covering it. I would raise taxes, wait a year and see how much you bring in and then go from there.

You also need bi partisan support as eventually the GoP will win another election. You would have to make your policy work and enough GoP voters dependent on it they can't risk sabotaging it.

Yes we have universal healthcare here, we still have private, and we have proportional representation. Bernie would fail here as an effective polititian and couldn't deliver on his policies. That's in one of the most liberal countries in the world and least corrupt.

You have to be realistic in what can be achieved plus have a realistic plan to get the voters to support you.

Alienating your own side and being so hardline compromise is a dirty word with no way to get policy through Congress isn't good strategy.

If Biden wins you can pressure him. Can't do that with Trump.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

9:40 into this one is the question and answer.

Yeah...the answer that is not "I will veto any medicare for all bill." The answer that is, in fact, exactly what I said...ie, take comfort that no I will not pass some ill conceived and poorly thought out bill that destroys access to healthcare just because Bernie Sanders stamps "medicare for all " across the top. That's how you win votes and get elected. Sanders should pay attention and maybe learn about that, if it weren't already too late for him.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah...the answer that is not "I will veto any medicare for all bill." The answer that is, in fact, exactly what I said...ie, take comfort that no I will not pass some ill conceived and poorly thought out bill that destroys access to healthcare just because Bernie Sanders stamps "medicare for all " across the top. That's how you win votes and get elected. Sanders should pay attention and maybe learn about that, if it weren't already too late for him.

Sounds like polititian speak.

Doesn't commit to anything, comes off as reasonable and leaves things open ended.

 

[Estebonrober]

Sounds like polititian speak.

Doesn't commit to anything, comes off as reasonable and leaves things open ended.

which fits @Timsup2nothin politics perfectly.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Sounds like polititian speak.

Doesn't commit to anything, comes off as reasonable and leaves things open ended.

Gains votes, has opportunity to get elected. Yeah, that's how that works. In asking the question O'Donnell basically framed it as "will you sign a 'medicare for all' bill even if it is obviously a compromised piece of crap?" So the answer is no. That has no relation to "he said he won't sign any M4A bill!" Panic inducing lies get called lies. Pretty simple stuff, really.

which fits @Timsup2nothin politics perfectly.

Thanks. Yes, I am far more interested in seeing a Democrat win than seeing one go down to 'noble' defeat.

 

[Ironsided]

It’s not a cost, it’s a saving for society. There is probably a transition cost as it is with all policy and organisational change but running a UHC is a saving over time. Else the UK and other fiscal conservative nations would have ditched it long ago.

 

[Estebonrober]

Thanks. Yes, I am far more interested in seeing a Democrat win than seeing one go down to 'noble' defeat.

if it wasn’t for RBG I’d say duck the democrat party.


It’s pointless. It’s just a facade for corruption with the pleasant veneer of trying to treat people like people. When it’s convenient. I’m not even certain they’d keep the veneer on if they could figure out a way to be more cruel then republicans and win.

 

[Zardnaar]

which fits @Timsup2nothin politics perfectly.

It's how it works here as well.

Don't get elected you get nothing.


Still Biden didn't say what people are claiming.

I don't expect much from Biden and doubt Sanders ability to do anything even if elected. Both are still better than Trump who's going out of his way to hurt people.

Doing nothing for 4 years is an improvement. Sad but true IMHO.

 

[Birdjaguar]

But it's true that you get into arguments with almost everybody, sometimes using insults, and for some reason mods dun care.

Well, I'm one who he has never berated or insulted. There may be many more.

 

[Estebonrober]

It's how it works here as well.

Don't get elected you get nothing.


Still Biden didn't say what people are claiming.

I don't expect much from Biden and doubt Sanders ability to do anything even if elected. Both are still better than Trump who's going out of his way to hurt people.

Doing nothing for 4 years is an improvement. Sad but true IMHO.

I will always expect more out of humans then this garbage. I might be terminally disappointed but at least I stood by my values.

 

[Zardnaar]

if it wasn’t for RBG I’d say duck the democrat party.


It’s pointless. It’s just a facade for corruption with the pleasant veneer of trying to treat people like people. When it’s convenient. I’m not even certain they’d keep the veneer on if they could figure out a way to be more cruel then republicans and win.

Bit to change it you have to change the rules. How do you do that? Get elected.

Your about 10 years short of being able to be progressive and a generation or two short of being able to change the constitution.

Until you flip Texas reliably and can hold the Senate it's kind of irrelevant what a few posters here want.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It’s not a cost, it’s a saving for society. There is probably a transition cost as it is with all policy and organisational change but running a UHC is a saving over time. Else the UK and other fiscal conservative nations would have ditched it long ago.

Well, as far as I've seen "medicare for all" isn't a UK style UHC in the first place, but setting that aside.

Voters are concerned that a poorly thought through reform of health care might leave them with no health care at all in a critical moment when they really need it. Those voters would read what you just posted and see it as "if that happens, well, you are a transition cost...tough break." That does NOT get anyone elected.

A lot of you guys seem to think that just because I am a strategist I oppose you on issues, when I really don't. I am just applying what it takes to win, because if you don't win your position really isn't going to matter.

 

[Takhisis]

You also need bi partisan support as eventually the GoP will win another election.

DEM USA | REP USA
Mutilated ACA → repeal ‘and replace’
Watered down Paris climate treaties → US walks out of the treaties altogether​

I see a pattern there already

 

[Zardnaar]

Well, as far as I've seen "medicare for all" isn't a UK style UHC in the first place, but setting that aside.

Voters are concerned that a poorly thought through reform of health care might leave them with no health care at all in a critical moment when they really need it. Those voters would read what you just posted and see it as "if that happens, well, you are a transition cost...tough break." That does NOT get anyone elected.

A lot of you guys seem to think that just because I am a strategist I oppose you on issues, when I really don't. I am just applying what it takes to win, because if you don't win your position really isn't going to matter.

Remember when people criticized the GiPs win at all costs mentality. They get this.

DEM USA | REP USA
Mutilated ACA → repeal ‘and replace’
Watered down Paris climate treaties → US walks out of the treaties altogether​

I see a pattern there already

You need to win and lock the GoP out or put them in a position they can't sabotage your stuff.

That involves crushing Trump and winning. The basic steps will take 10 years, the rest of the liberal wish list is generational stuff assuming you can actually win.

It's better to underpromise and over deliver vs over promise and under deliver.

Look at Obama people took hope and change to mean whatever they thought. Didn't work out well.

 

[Patine]

if it wasn’t for RBG I’d say duck the democrat party.


It’s pointless. It’s just a facade for corruption with the pleasant veneer of trying to treat people like people. When it’s convenient. I’m not even certain they’d keep the veneer on if they could figure out a way to be more cruel then republicans and win.

As I've said a few times, the Duopoly and their rigged and corrupt, Putin- and Mugabe-esque hold on the electoral system, is one of the biggest enemies of real choice, accountability, transparency, and true Constitutional government in the United States. They both have to go, destroyed, or greatly humbled, as political forces before any true progress forward can be made in the U.S. And I know @Birdjaguar is going to swoop down again and attack this post SOLELY because it's made by a Canadian, and for no other reason, and give no defense of why the Duopoly should remain or is necessary or should truly be continued to be tolerated lying to, cheating, and screwing over the American voters again and again, and then arrogantly and smugly sitting back watching the majority of American voter crawl back to them at the ballot and beg one of the other for another term, like domestic abuse victims, or why these two corrupt, criminal cartel parties are better than a robust multi-party system where failed parties are actually allowed to die, schism, or merge, and not be considered an unimaginable extistential political apocalypse if one or both of the major ones did so.

 

[Estebonrober]

You need to win and lock the GoP out or put them in a position they can't sabotage your stuff.

That involves crushing Trump and winning. The basic steps will take 10 years, the rest of the liberal wish list is generational stuff assuming you can actually win.

crushing them does not include capitulation to their demands and insistence on a letter D being in the policy. Biden has tried to reduce SS and Medicare and welfare over four times directly himself!

As I've said a few times, the Duopoly and their rigged and corrupt, Putin- and Mugabe-esque hold on the electoral system, is one of the biggest enemies of real choice, accountability, transparency, and true Constitutional government in the United States. They both have to go, destroyed, or greatly humbled, as political forces before any true progress forward can be made in the U.S. And I know @Birdjaguar is going to swoop down again and attack this post SOLELY because it's made by a Canadian, and for no other reason, and give no defense of why the Duopoly should remain or is necessary or should truly be continued to be tolerated lying to, cheating, and screwing over the American voters again and again, and then arrogantly and smugly sitting back watching the majority of American voter crawl back to them at the ballot and beg one of the other for another term, like domestic abuse victims, or why these two corrupt, criminal cartel parties are better than a robust multi-party system where failed parties are actually allowed to die, schism, or merge, and not be considered an unimaginable extistential political apocalypse if one or both of the major ones did so.

please stop posting this. You do it often and the only way for that to happen is serious levels of violence.

 

[Zardnaar]

As I've said a few times, the Duopoly and their rigged and corrupt, Putin- and Mugabe-esque hold on the electoral system, is one of the biggest enemies of real choice, accountability, transparency, and true Constitutional government in the United States. They both have to go, destroyed, or greatly humbled, as political forces before any true progress forward can be made in the U.S. And I know @Birdjaguar is going to swoop down again and attack this post SOLELY because it's made by a Canadian, and for no other reason, and give no defense of why the Duopoly should remain or is necessary or should truly be continued to be tolerated lying to, cheating, and screwing over the American voters again and again, and then arrogantly and smugly sitting back watching the majority of American voter crawl back to them at the ballot and beg one of the other for another term, like domestic abuse victims, or why these two corrupt, criminal cartel parties are better than a robust multi-party system where failed parties are actually allowed to die, schism, or merge, and not be considered an unimaginable extistential political apocalypse if one or both of the major ones did so.

Electoral reform means winning power and it's a voter priority.

please stop posting this. You do it often and the only way for that to happen is serious levels of violence.

And the armed forces don't swing Democrat.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

As I've said a few times, the Duopoly and their rigged and corrupt, Putin- and Mugabe-esque hold on the electoral system, is one of the biggest enemies of real choice, accountability, transparency, and true Constitutional government in the United States. They both have to go, destroyed, or greatly humbled, as political forces before any true progress forward can be made in the U.S. And I know @Birdjaguar is going to swoop down again and attack this post SOLELY because it's made by a Canadian, and for no other reason, and give no defense of why the Duopoly should remain or is necessary or should truly be continued to be tolerated lying to, cheating, and screwing over the American voters again and again, and then arrogantly and smugly sitting back watching the majority of American voter crawl back to them at the ballot and beg one of the other for another term, like domestic abuse victims, or why these two corrupt, criminal cartel parties are better than a robust multi-party system where failed parties are actually allowed to die, schism, or merge, and not be considered an unimaginable extistential political apocalypse if one or both of the major ones did so.

He might leave it to me instead.

You are constantly harping on this 'duopoly' as if it exists somehow independent of the voters and doesn't represent 'real USA.' Get over it. Yes, collectively USians have no conscience and would eat Canada for breakfast if they were hungry. The fact that the two parties would be racing for the cutting board to see who got to slice some Saskatchewan doesn't make it the fault of the parties and absolve the populace.

 

[Patine]

please stop posting this. You do it often and the only way for that to happen is serious levels of violence.

I'm not talking overthrowing the whole Governmental apparatus and Constitution by violent revolution. I'm saying a massive legislative revolt is what's needed. There's no inherent need for violence. More 1990's Italy, South Africa, and Zambia, or Mexico in 2000 - them some other countries in the 1990's and 2000's. Declaring that I'm advocating violent revolution by nature is - yet another - disingenuous false attack.

He might leave it to me instead.

You are constantly harping on this 'duopoly' as if it exists somehow independent of the voters and doesn't represent 'real USA.'.

It's upper echelons certainly do. The party bosses, the elected office holders, the political strategists and organizers, the ones who work in elected officials' offices, the plutocratic donors who hold more power over said office-holders and candidates than their own constituents, the voices whispering in elected officeholders' ears in unmonitored rooms, etc. Don't give me the "parties represent the people," crap. In "1984," there was the "Inner Party" (including Big Brother and his cronies, and, formerly, Emanuel Goldstein), whom no one ever met and only saw on screens, and then there was the common "Party." Maybe it's not that extreme, but it's as far off as you're making it out to be.

 

[Gori the Grey]

(not sure exactly how that will play out)

I think it's going to take the form of contesting the election results in every state that is close, then contesting the recount, ad infinitum. Don't know that he'll get it to work for him, but that's the form I think it will take.