2020 US Election (Part One)

[Zardnaar]

Refusing to move on the issue of makign healthcare more accessible or affordable isn't making my life worse and sticking with the status quo that is punishing me for daring to have health issues isn't going to continue to make life harder?

What the hell are you talking about? Get a grip

I said actively make your life worse. Doing nothing isn't that he not actively making your life better.

Trump tried to actively make whatever you do have worse.

If Bernie wasn't so hardline or didn't have a heap of other unrealistic ideas maybe he could have gotten the mist important one (healthcare reform) over the line.

You do realize the hard left is actively driving voters to Biden and maybe Trump right?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

The situation is already intolerable, his relative inaction and refusal to address it is still condemning millions of Americans to needless suffering and financial hardship; what about this do you struggle to understand or grasp?

I have no faith in Biden to do anything than continue the status quo, not even to get ACA back to where it was before Trump gutted it.

 

[Zardnaar]

The situation is already intolerable, his relative inaction and refusal to address it is still condemning millions of Americans to needless suffering and financial hardship; what about this do you struggle to understand or grasp?

I have no faith in Biden to do anything than continue the status quo, not even to get ACA back to where it was before Trump gutted it.

I understand perfectly fine. I also understand to get change you need to win power. You have to be realistic though. All the other Sanders policies were unachievable.

Sanders would crash and burn here. He's not skilled enough a polititian to rally mass support. Politics requires compromise.

 

[amadeus]

I was watching Sanders' town hall on FOX News and despite his persuasive abilities compared to some of the other Democrats he's really a one-note guy and takes every question back to one of two signature policies.

edit: I noticed too that his speech mannerisms remind me more and more of Larry David playing George Steinbrenner on Seinfeld. If Sanders would start talking about anything else besides politics, I might be inclined to vote for him.

 

[Gorbles]

The problem with that @amadeus is he then risks watering down his important policies. He's playing it all back to his signature policies because they're the most important ones. They're core. They're signature to him, his style and his message, sure, but they're core to the platform in terms of both political response and impact on American lives.

I get where you're coming from, but I also see why Sanders is going so hard on the angles he is.

You've over played that card it's lost all effect. I don't see Biden actively trying to make your life worse.

There is a German word for it.

Biden literally doesn't want to support M4A or anything similar that anyone from a Sanders or Sanders-equivalent camp (on healthcare) would propose. I'm not talking about edited videos or whatever, I'm talking about actual quotes where he's hesitant to commit to Medicare (for all) or indeed freely-available healthcare in general. He seems to insist there needs to be a cost.

Just because you "don't see" something, doesn't mean it's not there. You're not infallible, and your claims for what do and don't harm other people are just that - claims. No-one is obliged to take them on merit, and they're never backed up with even the slightest amount of real-world information.

 

[Berzerker]

Trump tried to gut the ACA. Failed by a single vote.

And McCain is dead.

The main objection to the ACA was the tax/fine (individual mandate) people had to pay

 

[amadeus]

The problem with that @amadeus is he then risks watering down his important policies. He's playing it all back to his signature policies because they're the most important ones. They're core. They're signature to him, his style and his message, sure, but they're core to the platform in terms of both political response and impact on American lives.

I get where you're coming from, but I also see why Sanders is going so hard on the angles he is.

I get it, but I think it also opens him up to weaknesses. As good as he is at redirecting questions to his policies, he needs to have more flexibility in answering other questions.

For anyone already not aware, I’m not concern trolling; I’m vocally against Sanders. I’m trying to remain neutral in assessing weaknesses/strengths where I can.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

People can do both. If you have a counterargument, try it, instead of tone policing.

Remember a page or two back when you were asking for evidence of hyperbole:

People need to know that Biden is Scum.

?
When you first posted it, I went through this thread and tagged a bunch of comments like Cloud's here to reply to your post with, but then deleted b/c I decided I didn't want to start crap. But here you chide @Zardnaar for being the tone police and saying he didn't have a counterargument when he actually did. He said people's arguments against Biden would go further without the hyperbole, hyperbole which you don't seem to notice.

I actually have stopped caring about all the stuff being said about Biden here. A huge part of that is because every conversation comes back to Biden being a brain-rotten bigot of the first order. Kind of sucks for me because I do come here for a lot of insights and to hear what people are thinking.

The problem with that @amadeus is he then risks watering down his important policies.

Yeah well considering how much he's getting his ass handed to him, maybe refocusing his policies and broadening what he talks about might be in order...

 

[Gorbles]

Remember a page or two back when you were asking for evidence of hyperbole:

?
When you first posted it, I went through this thread and tagged a bunch of comments like Cloud's here to reply to your post with, but then deleted b/c I decided I didn't want to start crap. But here you chide @Zardnaar for being the tone police and saying he didn't have a counterargument when he actually did. He said people's arguments against Biden would go further without the hyperbole, hyperbole which you don't seem to notice.

I actually have stopped caring about all the stuff being said about Biden here. A huge part of that is because every conversation comes back to Biden being a brain-rotten bigot of the first order. Kind of sucks for me because I do come here for a lot of insights and to hear what people are thinking.

Yeah well considering how much he's getting his ass handed to him, maybe refocusing his policies and broadening what he talks about might be in order...

If he gets his ass handed to him, that's that at this stage. I was just commenting on amadeus' opinions on how Sanders was coming across, and nothing more than that.

r.e. hyperbole and tone policing, I perhaps need to break it down some more. Not only are we discussing in the microcosm of CFC, i.e. it's very unlikely we're actually shifting votes here, but you viewing a discussion as it moves. I asked for a counterargument before Zard posted the thing you're now referencing as the counterargument I replied to it!

At the risk of rubbing you the wrong way, this is pure speculation, but the combination of the Sanders stance vs. your comment on how word choice r.e. Biden, it seems like you're invested in this a particular way as well (a different way to Cloud, or whomever, but still invested). Understandably and naturally, but I'm getting resistance to criticism of Biden in general. Is that an accurate take? Am I reading it right? If I'm wrong I'm wrong, I just kinda want to stop and evaluate before I dive Gorbles-first into another potential wall of text.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

, but I'm getting resistance to criticism of Biden in general. Is that an accurate take?

I am deeply saddened at the prospect of Biden being on the top of the ticket. He deserves a lot of criticism for sure.

But that's not what I'm taking issue with; it's the constant brain-rot hyperbole that's annoying af and then when someone speaks out about it, now they're the tone police?

I have no faith in Biden to do anything than continue the status quo

Wasn't Biden responsible in part for Obama coming around on gay marriage and LGBTQ support in general? Wasn't he also instrumental in getting the ACA passed in the first place? Say what you want about Biden, but he has a lot of pull with Congress (or at least he did) that Sanders and all the other candidates don't have.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Wasn't Biden responsible in part for Obama coming around on gay marriage and LGBTQ support in general? Wasn't he also instrumental in getting the ACA passed in the first place? Say what you want about Biden, but he has a lot of pull with Congress (or at least he did) that Sanders and all the other candidates don't have.

Hes very much a Washington insider. That probably helped Obama as President but I'm not convinced it does help beat Trump.
Carter and Bill Clinton were state governors, hence not insiders, when they ran for President.
Obama ran on a platform of change.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

And look where that's gotten Americans.

but then deleted b/c I decided I didn't want to start crap

But you have, by this very comment

 

[Gorbles]

I am deeply saddened at the prospect of Biden being on the top of the ticket. He deserves a lot of criticism for sure.

But that's not what I'm taking issue with; it's the constant brain-rot hyperbole that's annoying af and then when someone speaks out about it, now they're the tone police?

Fair enough. I'll do my best to avoid a derail here - I welcome a PM to clear up some of the more decidedly off-topic parts of this - but in general it's not specifically a Biden thing you're seeing here (at least from me). It's an Off Topic thing. Also, naturally, some people are going to react more strongly to Biden as the candidate than others.

For example, I'm a Brit. I have no stake in this (beyond being an international citizen vaguely-affected on some tangential level by America's actions over the next few years). Zard's from New Zealand. Cloud is a marginalised minority living in the US (like, 99% sure on this). There is a contextual difference to the reactions displayed, and despite your arguments on how Biden arguably helped Obama, now is not then, and Biden is unlikely to be the candidate that really helps people like Cloud or others in similar situations. At the very least, it's not a guarantee.

Better than Trump? Yes. But that doesn't mean people aren't going to call him names, nor that those names aren't going to be heartfelt. He opposes M4A (at least as currently-proposed), right? That's a huge red flag for anybody who really needs healthcare. You need to understand the reactions, instead of grouping them all together. I'm not trying to be preachy, but definitely reading this as I type, coming across that way. Blah. Burnout on topics like these is incredibly easy, it happens to all of us. But you being exasperated with the vitriolic reactions to Biden being on the ticket need some nuance, in my opinion.

 

[Socrates99]

Trying to tone police valid criticism of Biden by saying it will hurt him in the general is idiocy. That's what primaries are for. Vetting these candidates. Trump and the GOP are going to be way nastier than Bernie Bros. Biden supported wars that Trump slammed Hillary for. Biden supported trade deals that Trump slammed Hillary for. Biden has a sleazy brother and failson who've profited off of his career even before becoming VP. Biden's repeatedly talked about reducing entitlements. Biden's supported terrible bank legislation and deregulation. He authored a rotten to its core crime bill.

Dont even need to point out his brain rot to show hes a terrible candidate. The only reason it's a factor is because it makes him WORSE than Hillary. At least she was sharp enough to form rebuttals. I have no faith in Biden to be able to pull that off.

This is all real, documented fact. Some of it even has video evidence. Saying hes the better candidate because "whelp, people might not be ready for single payer" or whatever else is just plain foolish.

Dont blame the Bernie supporters for gutter politics. This has been something they've dealt with from centrists and Republicans for 4 full years.

 

[Lexicus]

I'm 99.999% sure that "hasanabi@hsanabithehun" isn't Joe Biden's twitter ID. I'm not saying Biden didn't say it... just that I'm not taking some internet rando with glowing red eyes' word for it. Also:

I saw this being discussed on Facebook just today. Evidently he did do an interview where he said the following:



“I would veto anything that delays providing the security and the certainty of health care being available now,” Biden said, somewhat cryptically, sine Warren’s plan, for example, would immediately cover all children for free as well as all families making at or below 200% of the federal poverty level. “If they got that through by some miracle, if some epiphany occurred, and some miracle occurred and said ‘OK, it’s passed’ then you got to look at the cost. I want to know how did they find $35 trillion?”

Citing one estimate for the cost — others put the cost closer to $30 trillion over 10 years — Biden questioned the ability to pay for Sanders’ Medicare for All proposal, which would eliminate private health insurance in the country. However, according to one Yale study touted by Sanders, his plan would save 68,000 lives and benefit the US economy to the tune of $450 billion a year. On his campaign website, Sanders details a package of new taxes and revenue-raising measures that he claims would pay for the transition to full Medicare, but his proposals only total up to $17.5 trillion over a decade.

“Is it going to significantly raise taxes on the middle class? Which it will,” Biden asked and then answered his own question, hitting a policy point that Sanders himself has acknowledged. Sanders, though, rebuts this by saying any tax increases borne by the middle calls will be more than offset by savings from eliminating premiums, deductibles, and co-pays.

“My opposition isn’t to the principle that you should have Medicare. Everybody, health care should be a right in America,” Biden explained. “My opposition relates to whether or not, a, it’s doable, and, two, what the cost is and what the consequences to the rest of the budget are. How are going to find $35 trillion over the next 10 years without having profound impacts on everything from taxes for middle class, working class people, as well as the impact on the rest of the budget.”


So, I'd say the takeaway from this is not "Biden will veto M4A if it crosses his desk" - since we all know M4A ain't gonna cross his desk - but rather that Biden insists on continuing to use the same dishonest garbage talking points to discredit the idea of M4A. We know that M4A will cost less than the current system. We know that "where they find the $35 trillion to pay for it" is "the same place they found the money to pay for the Iraq War" - Congressional appropriation. We know "raise taxes on the middle class" is BS since the tax increase will be less than what they currently pay in premiums and out-of-pocket.

I actually have stopped caring about all the stuff being said about Biden here. A huge part of that is because every conversation comes back to Biden being a brain-rotten bigot of the first order. Kind of sucks for me because I do come here for a lot of insights and to hear what people are thinking.

Biden supported the Iraq War and was one of the major legislative mobilizers getting other people in Congress to support it (for example, he chaired completely one-sided hearings in the Senate where no experts who disagreed with the Bush Administration's interpretation of the WMD intelligence were allowed to speak, then used these hearings as evidence that the US needed to go to war). His entire career began by riding the white backlash against school integration. He was so servile to the financial sector that he was known as the "Senator from MBNA". Elizabeth Warren, who I believe is your favorite candidate, has in the past specifically name-checked him as instrumental in undermining bankruptcy protections for various classes of debtors. He has openly said that he reminisces about the days when he could politely compromise with outright segregationists.

Maybe "scum" is a little too mean, or whatever, but I'm not sure it can really be claimed that it is really hyperbolic. Don't allow the fact that Biden would be better than Trump to blind you to Biden's real flaws.

 

[Patine]

If you want to take pleasure in other people's measurable, quantafiable suffering, then go ahead and let the mask slip.

Even though Trump has been in office for almost 4 years, you'd never know, by listening to and your "post-like exchange crew," that the U.S. was still one of the 20 best countries in the world for women's and LGBTQ rights, and that comparative status wasn't in realistic danger.

 

[Socrates99]

Hasan isnt an internet rando either. He works for TYT. I don't always like everything from them but they dont lie either. Its pretty doubtful he's going to make stuff up whole cloth without a source.

 

[Lexicus]

Also I can say now that if the coronavirus keeps worsening Trump is probably gonna lose. I still consider it a real possibility he will refuse to leave office if he loses the election (not sure exactly how that will play out) but I don't see how he can win if there is a serious recession and lots of deaths from this thing.

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: Let's leave the tone policing to the staff and leave playground insults in the playground, then we'll all get on better.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The main objection to the ACA was the tax/fine (individual mandate) people had to pay

True. Everyone liked the benefits, but as usual USians want the benefits without paying for them.